Providing feedback to teachers that’s constructive and kind; Buzzing with Ms. B: The Coaching Podcast, Ep. 4

Providing Feedback to Teachers That’s Constructive and Kind, Instructional Coaching with Ms. B, Ep. 4

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:02]:

Hey, coach. Don’t worry. We’ll get to your episode in just a second. I just wanted to let you know that if you’re listening to this in December or January, it’s time for instructional coaching with miss b to take its little holiday hiatus. Every year from December through January, I take a season break. Then in February, the new season comes roaring in, and I share all the latest coaching strategies, troubleshooting, and ideas with you. I plan the season starting in January. So until then, I’d love to hear from you. Head to buzzing with miss b dot com slash survey to share your thoughts on the podcast. You can help me plan episodes and chat with guests that really help you with your everyday coaching work. I want these episodes to be meaningful and helpful, so please tell me what you’re thinking. If you complete the survey, you’ll also be entered to win a $25 gift card from a place of your choosing as long as I can grab it online. Head to buzzing with missb.com/survey and let me know what you think about Instructional Coaching with Miss b, the podcast, and enter twins, sir, the giveaway. I’m also using this hiatus to share some of the most popular episodes from the last six years. I know. Crazy six years. Maybe you’ve missed some very special gems that would help you out in this next semester. So keep looking for an episode every week in your podcast player. And, of course, you can listen on the blog at buzzingwithmissb.com/podcast. Happy holidays and happy coaching, everybody. Happy New Year, coach. By this time of year, you might feel like your coaching is a little out of your control. You might be spending days on random tasks that don’t actually impact teaching and learning. You might have taken on responsibilities that are keeping you from coaching teachers. Let’s get your coaching on track in ten minutes a day. Head to buzzing with missb.com/newyear. The five day challenge starts January 12. Can’t wait to see you inside. You’re listening to Buzzing with Miss B, the coaching podcast, where we believe that every teacher deserves a coach, and every coach does too. I’m Chrissy Beltran, an instructional coach, resource creator, and coffee enthusiast, and I’m your host. Stay tuned for practical tips and honest coaching talk that will help you coach with confidence.

Chrissy Beltran [00:02:09]:

Hey, coaches. This is Chrissy Beltran from Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching podcast. Thank you for tuning in today. I’m really excited about a special guest that we have that’s going to help us think about how to provide feedback to teachers in a way that doesn’t tick them off, but also pushes the envelope a little bit with every conversation. Today, my guest is Nicole Turner of Simply Coaching and Teaching, and she provides a simple how to’s for instructional coaches and teachers. Nicole, thank you so much for being here today, and I’m excited to talk to you.

Nicole S. Turner [00:02:37]:

Oh, thank you, Chrissy, so much for having me. I am so excited to be a part of this podcast.

Chrissy Beltran [00:02:42]:

Awesome. Do you wanna give us a little bit of background about yourself, Nicole?

Nicole S. Turner [00:02:46]:

Yeah. Sure. So I have been in the field of education for about fifteen years. I did a little bit of everything as you as you can see in part of my resume. So I’ve been a coach actually for about, five or six years. About six years. Been in different fields of, actual coaching. So I’ve been a district coach and then a building coach as well. My background is elementary, so I do k six, but I have an administrative license and experience as k 12. I’ve always worked in challenging areas, so I did a lot of work, school turnaround work, and I worked for the Department of Education, the Indiana Department of Education as a school improvement and turnaround specialist. So I got a lot of experience there, which really helped me to become a coach. So as far as my coaching path,

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:38]:

this is so funny, I never even knew

Nicole S. Turner [00:03:40]:

what an instructional coach was. Mhmm. One year well, when I first became a teacher, I was ripped every year. Right? So, like, it was surplus of teachers, not like how it is now, but it was the surplus of teachers. I always got, let go every year. And this one particular year, we had this cadre, and, one of the coaches at the district level said, hey. I want you to do this job. And I was like, what? What is this? They were like, hey. Come and interview. So I was like, okay. Cool. So I went and I interviewed. I had no idea what I was talking about. All I did was talk about what I did in the classroom as a classroom teacher, and then the next day, I was hired. So it was a really good opportunity, but then I was thrown into the mix of not knowing exactly what to do, and trying to figure it out.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:33]:

You know, that’s really similar to my story. I wasn’t expecting to be an instructional coach either, and someone told me to go interview for a position. And then, bam, you’re a coach, and you’re like, woah. That was not what I was expecting to happen this year. Yeah. But but that’s great. The experience that you have, I’m sure, has really supported you in working with teachers, in an effective way. So can you tell us every coach has completely different jobs, it seems like. Right? Yeah. Depending on your district or your administration or, you know, just the the nature of the work at your campus, your roles might be super different. And so one of the questions that we get a lot is what responsibilities should I be doing as a coach, which is a little bit different than the question, what responsibilities do you do do you have as a coach? So can you tell us a little bit about what your coaching work looks like, Lita, where you spend your time, what kind of responsibilities your coaching work includes?

Nicole S. Turner [00:05:24]:

Yeah. Sure. So what I will kinda do is talk about what I did over the years a couple of different times. Because like you said, I’ve been in different buildings, and so my administrative kinda reacquired me to do it different ways. And so in in my elementary role, when I was an elementary coach, I did a lot more of more coaching cycles, more in the classroom, more modeling, more team teaching, more content planning. I did a lot of that role, and I didn’t do so much professional development. So I did a kind of it was more of a balance of more of being in the classroom and then more of, working in the balance piece as far as my responsibilities. But now that I am coaching at the secondary level, it looks a little different because I have different departments. And so it’s not the same as it is when it’s with the elementary, world. So in my role now, I provide more professional development. So I have a PD day every week, which is every Tuesday. And then every Thursday, I facilitate PLCs. So the PLC, you know, it’s kinda different from PD, which sometimes we use those words interchangeably. But the PLC, we really do, more of that data drive, really looking at student work, really having conversations around content being, taught, making sure that the content is mapped to the standards and the skills, even talking about a lot of those baseline, the baseline content and the baseline, skills that the students need or the foundational skills that those students need. So I do a lot more of that work, and then I do a lot more of just walk throughs, providing feedbacks, and coaching cycles just for newer teachers versus the coaching cycles to grow teachers because this year, I have about 13 on my caseload, but along with providing PD every week

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:26]:

Right.

Nicole S. Turner [00:07:26]:

I’m also a testing coordinator, for my building. So just with all of that, I’m not able to do it as much as I did when I was in the elementary world.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:39]:

Sure. You know, the phrase testing coordinator, you just said it, and it just, like, my heart just squished in my chest. That is the worst job ever. So I commend you for taking that responsibility. Oh, man.

Nicole S. Turner [00:07:50]:

I I really want but this is the one thing. So last year, my principal I wasn’t moved to a new school. So my principal was like, you’re the testing coordinator for everything. And I just was like, this is high school. Like, it’s different. Final exams. So you have to make sure that you do a schedule for that. You have, in Indiana, we have ISTEP. We have, retesters because if they don’t, pass it, then you do it again in in December, in the fall. We do it again in May, then you do it again in March. Like, it’s crazy. Then you have ESL testing, and then you have special education follow ups. And then everything is you know, it’s just so much. So my principal this year decided to, split it between about three of us in a building, which is good. So I am the coordinator for, specific assessment to our building assessment. So our final exams, I make sure that I, you know, work with that schedule. And then the NWEA, which is our benchmark assessments. So I do that. There’s another our AP does the iSTEP, the, you know, high stakes testing. Mhmm. And I did the PSAT last year part of that. So And then we have another coordinator for all of our ESL students because they have to have all of those, Mhmm. Tests completed.

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:08]:

Mhmm. Well, may the force be with you on that one because that is one thing I do not miss.

Nicole S. Turner [00:09:13]:

I know that’s right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:15]:

So I think what you’re what you’re talking about here is how different, coaching work is depending on the the level that you’re at and the school that you’re at. So you’re spending two of your days basically locked in a room with teachers. Right? Absolutely. Providing content or direction or direction or looking at, data or planning. And, so then the the feedback that you provide the teachers, you know, that’s our main goal of this this conversation today, is to give some people to give people some actionable tools that they can use when they go back to provide feedback to their own teachers. Right. But because your time is so limited in those classrooms, your feedback has to be really on point. Right? Yeah. Because you are trying to constantly support teachers and push them and support them and grow them, whether that’s a new teacher or a veteran teacher, even though I know your coaching work is mostly focused on coaching cycles are mostly focused on new teachers right now. Yeah. So, what do you find are the benefits of providing feedback to teachers about their practice? Because it’s not an easy thing to do. So how do how do you make that work for you?

Nicole S. Turner [00:10:13]:

It’s not an easy thing to do. And throughout the years, I’ve learned some of the tricks of the trade. One specific thing is to make sure that when you go in to observe a teacher, that you are writing down specifics.

Chrissy Beltran [00:10:26]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:10:26]:

So I call it evidence based observations. I know there are, like, 90 different thousand terms of the way in which you could call this, but I focus on the evidence based. If I’m looking for something specific, I have a goal in which I am doing to observe something that we’ve been working on in our coaching cycle.

Chrissy Beltran [00:10:43]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:10:44]:

Then I’m looking specifically, how is it being implemented? What is what is the teacher doing? And, also, what are the students doing? I don’t wanna just focus on what the teacher is or is not doing. I wanna focus on what the students are doing as well so then I can give the teacher feedback on how to implement whatever it is, whatever changes that need Mhmm. Specifically for the students, for the climate and the culture for his or her classroom. So for instance, when I do those observations, I write down names, I write down what’s happening in the classroom, I write down, the what the student is doing, how and then suggestions on how you can improve on that particular piece. So I make sure that it’s all about evidence. One thing that we did a couple of years ago, we started doing a video coaching. If if I’m sure a lot of teachers are coaches are familiar with it, and they’re kinda, like, thinking more about it, especially because Jim Knight’s book, it’s talking about the the video coaching part. But video coaching is huge, and I like to utilize that, especially with my newer teachers because they’re a little more open, to utilizing the video. And they don’t feel as though I am trying to get them or I’m gonna do something else with the video. So I utilize video a lot, and I allow them to record it. I also have a feedback video feedback sheet that I have for them to fill out. So they watch the video of themselves. They they write it out, and then we go from there. Then then they share it with me. So I never own the video. Right? I never get to have rights. I just view the video, and then I will complete that exact same form. So we so we’re mirroring. So when we meet, it’s intentional, and we’ll look at the video together, and then I can share what I saw, and then she or he can share what he saw specifically of the questions that we got. And then it it makes a world of difference of that specific feedback. So that’s where I feel like the benefits are, making sure that they’re evidence based and making sure it’s something that they can see, so that they can then take it

Nicole S. Turner [00:12:56]:

and quickly implement it. So feedback is always about giving specifics and allowing them to be able to immediately, implement it right away.

Chrissy Beltran [00:13:07]:

You know, I love that idea so much, and I’m sure that I can hear coaches’ pencils moving everywhere as they write that down because that is so great. Video feedback or video lessons that where teachers can actually see themselves. It changes your perspective so much when you see what you’re doing, on camera, and you can really see where you’re putting your attention. You can hear the language you’re using and not just the language you think that you’re using. Yep. So it’s so precise and accurate. I love that idea. And that you both fill out the same form is such a great way to do that too because then when you get together, you have some some common talking point that you may have noticed completely different things.

Nicole S. Turner [00:13:43]:

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because you see it differently. But just think about you watching your classroom Mhmm. And you get to see what the students are doing that you didn’t see. You know?

Chrissy Beltran [00:13:52]:

Because we

Nicole S. Turner [00:13:53]:

don’t get to see it all the time, and you’re like, well And so then in your mind, it starts to go through, like, well, I can put this in place in order for this to, you know, take place. I can put this in place in order to avoid students doing this. So it’s it’s eye opening in so many different perspectives.

Chrissy Beltran [00:14:11]:

I believe that. You know, even just having another person in your room sometimes changes your perspective because I can remember being in the middle of a lesson, and my principal walked in. And suddenly, I felt like my brain was transported across the room and to the door where he was standing, and I was trying to see things from his eyes. Mhmm. And then trying to see it from a different perspective makes an impact. Actually seeing it from a different perspective would be so much more impactful. So do you provide feedback? You’re talking about taking notes, which I totally agree with because you wanna be specific and accurate, in the feedback you give to teachers. Do you provide feedback to the teachers in writing, or do you just have a verbal conversation?

Nicole S. Turner [00:14:49]:

So I do both. Okay. And so I do this thing called, positive feedback. So I do a walk every month, and they’re little themes, little notes that I take and I and I go in. So, like, for January because we live here in Indiana where it snows a lot. So I’ll leave a little card that says, thanks for snowing your knowledge on students, and I’ll leave that with a cute little, you know, like a a mint or different something like that. So I’ll leave that positive feedback that way. So my regular feedback, I do, I have a Google Doc that I have, and then some I have some, you know, my observation forms. And then I’ll just write some of that kind of as together during our meeting, and I’ll give that to the teacher. Okay. So I’m very open and transparent about the feedback that I give them, and I also am very open and transparent, about making sure that they understand, you know, where I’m coming from and and their takeaways. So we have the verbal conversation, but then there is a, you know, on a little feedback form, I’ll make sure I give them specific things, what I observe, some of the key points that we talked about in our conversation, and then the takeaways or their next steps of what are some things that they need to do.

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:12]:

Okay. Great. I used to do something similar. It wasn’t as quite as structured, but, yeah, I would I would take notes and then kind of reformulate those notes into something that I would share with the teacher. And then I actually had carbon copies, and I would keep a copy and provide the teacher. This was old school. Okay? I I know that you you check people, you Google Docs, people are rolling over. Like, you’re it’s really stressing you out that I just said carbon copy, and I meant it literally. But that is what I used to do. I like being able to lay things out across my table and notice patterns. And so that was really helpful to me as I could literally lay them all out and look across my whole set of stuff and then kinda see what patterns I noticed coming from that teacher so I can help provide them with some direction. So So it was nice having something tangible for me. But I Google Docs are is an amazing way to coordinate so many things, and you can have teachers actually provide response to that too and record that. So so I love that approach. Yep. So you mentioned that feedback whenever you go in to to provide feedback, that you are often focused on one specific thing because it’s part of your coaching cycle.

Nicole S. Turner [00:17:16]:

Right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:17:17]:

Do you ever, provide feedback that is kind of just more generalized, or is it always targeted on that coaching cycle?

Nicole S. Turner [00:17:24]:

What it is that I do is that I do a baseline observation at the beginning of the school year. So I go in and I look at five different focuses, in the classroom. So I look at, like, lessons, objectives. Of course, in my district, we look at observations. Every district doesn’t, but we look at, I mean, I’m sorry, objectives. What’s on the board? Do they have, you know, the compliance piece, that’s on them? Then I look at the environment of what’s happening in the classroom. What is the teacher doing? What is the students doing? How are the students responding to the teacher? How the teachers responding to the students? If it’s in a positive way versus negative, kinda all of that looking at that type of environment. Are routines in place? Are things structured? How the classroom is set up, the functionability of it, kinda that way. Then I look at the instructional execution, like, how does the teacher is teaching, what strategies he’s utilizing, and then moving into, like, the third one of checks for understanding, how they’re doing assessments, kinda, you know, that part. And then finally, the academic behaviors of kids, like, how they’re responding, and what it is that they’re doing and kind of the behavior management, part. So when I do a baseline observation, that’s kinda what I do. And I look at, those pieces. So not every time I do, the observation is structured. I mean, that’s kind of an overview of what good teaching is or what’s good happening happening in the classroom. So that’s kinda what I do for that. But I’m very I guess, I’m just it’s just me. I’m very meticulous about when I’m in a coach’s cycle that I choose that one thing, and I provide that specific thing and that feedback for that goal rather than to be all over the place. Mhmm. Because sometimes we can go into a classroom and, you know, and I’m sure as a coach, you can go in and you see 19 different things. You’re like, uh-uh, girl. You need some help. There’s some real things. But I the things that we can quickly implement and get the most bang for our buck immediately

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:35]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:19:36]:

Where we can make the most effective change in the classroom. And so that’s kind of been my model.

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:43]:

Yeah. I like that because that’s very targeted and purposeful for the teacher as well, and they know that they are working on something that you’re gonna notice. So sometimes teachers do all this stuff and it feels like nobody notices. Nobody ever follows through on the things they’ve been asked to do. But if you’re coaching them on a specific aspect, on one of those specific domains that you talked about, then they know this is where I’m really working. I’m going to grow this area, and so do they know you’re going to see the impact of that work that you’re doing together, which is great. That’s a great way to to give them feedback that is purposeful and is also, going to value and acknowledge the work that they’re doing. That’s awesome.

Nicole S. Turner [00:20:21]:

And they could see growth. They could definitely see growth.

Chrissy Beltran [00:20:24]:

Right. That’s beautiful. So in keeping, you know, in that same idea, the idea the idea of providing feedback is that we’re giving teachers support while we are providing a push, and that can be a challenge. You talked a little bit about the structure of your feedback including, some praise, some positives, and also some some areas to grow in. So how do you balance that though when you’re providing feedback? How do you, how do you know you’re giving teachers enough of a push?

Nicole S. Turner [00:20:54]:

Probably their faces. When I’m looking at them and they’re like, are you serious?

Chrissy Beltran [00:21:01]:

Like, well, that was a little bit much of a push right there.

Nicole S. Turner [00:21:04]:

Right there. Yes. But, no, I think one of the biggest things is, again, going back to that that point of what can we implement immediately to make change to make the greatest change at the smallest amount in the smallest amount of time.

Chrissy Beltran [00:21:19]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:21:20]:

And not just for the teacher because I know a lot of times we focus our coaching around teacher actions, but also what the students and how to get that student change or the student action change as well. Mhmm. So when I provide feedback, I do like to do, what you guys call the sandwich method. I do and and, you know, what I think probably just because when I was in the classroom and when I was talking with administrators in the beginning, it’s like, you always start the conversation off with positive stuff. So I tried to. But I also went in my feedback meeting. I try to make it very personable, and not so what do you say? Like, so formal and so, you know, this is just about work type of thing. So I may start my conversation with saying, hey, Chrissy. How’s your daughter? You know, how are things going? How is your mom or how is your dad or, you know, that kind of stuff. Some previous conversations that we may have had that they’ve kinda shared. So I always try to talk something about their personal piece just to get people relaxed, a little bit more comfortable, that wall kinda comes down. I may talk about the craziness of my three children because I always have a crazy story of what’s going on and what’s happening over here. Okay? So I, I always try to start off with that. And then I’ll say, you know, thanks so much for letting me, you know, come in your class today. And then here are some of the things that I saw, and and I always talk about the positive things that I saw first. Mhmm. And if there is, like, what we just talked about, if there’s some growth, if there’s some things that, yes, they’re working on this particular, focus this week or this month or this cycle, and I saw growth in that, I am definitely praising about it. I’m telling you how much growth I saw. I am so excited for the changes, and then I’m specifically providing feedback on those changes. So, for instance, if if I went to miss Johnson’s class, right, and miss Johnson is working on implementing routines in her classroom. And when I went to observe it, she had literally put in a a welcome routine

Nicole S. Turner [00:23:25]:

or a walk in routine for the kids, and they knew where the pencils were, and they knew how to get their stuff, and they immediately came in and worked. And before, it wasn’t like that, but she implemented it. I’m seriously like, miss Johnson, girl, you got it going on. I am so excited. But and then I asked them how do they feel about the growth and the change. Mhmm. So my conversation is like, whoo. I saw it. It is doing good. You’re doing awesome. But at the same point, like, how do you feel that it’s going? Like, how do you feel that it’s changed? Like, has it made your classroom a little bit smoother or, you know, kinda go through that? So I really wanna attach and and get to their feelings before I ever provide any additional next steps, okay, constructive pieces to that. Mhmm. So it’s kind of a strategic thing, to try to get that feel good so I get you relaxed, you know. Then I talk about your growth that gets your feelings into it. And then we move into okay. So now that you’ve gotten that far and now you see and you’ve experienced some successes, let’s talk about how we can take you further as a teacher. And here are some of the things that I saw in the classroom, and then here are some of the things the next steps. And then what are your thoughts about that? And what do you think is the next step for you? So I don’t ever push it as me being the person who is telling you what your next step should be. I allow you to kinda grapple through that process, and we do a lot of of talking back and forth about what that looks like. So that end game, what should that look like? And then what are some of the things that you need to do in order to get to that that end game goal? And then allow you to choose what it is that you want them to do. Now here’s the thing. In your mind as a coach, you have to already know what it is you want them to do. Yes. And then you have to, as I kinda say, help people to understand what it is that they need without them knowing.

Nicole S. Turner [00:25:32]:

And so just kinda have that kinda conversation around it and then let them have that buy in, you know, with the choices in in which they they choose that they wanna do next. And it it seems to work out better, when you utilize that type of model. So it’s kinda like the sandwich model, but a little bit more silly, a little bit more relaxed type of, approach that I do. And not everybody has their personality, and I get that. I’m more of a personable person. I can probably laugh in in with the best of them. You know? I tell jokes. I’m I’m funny. You know? I’m always telling a story. But for coaches to become more of you, become more of a authentic person versus being somebody else, when you’re in that feedback meeting. And once that shield is down and people get to know that you authentically want to be a a part of their success, and you are vested in their success as a teacher, then it becomes a lot more the feedback conversation becomes a lot more, relaxed and approachable.

Chrissy Beltran [00:26:41]:

That is such great advice. I really like that you talked a lot about being authentic because that is really true. I’ve seen coaches who feel like, well, I have to praise something, and I don’t see anything that I wanna praise. And so they’ll kinda make something up, and that that can be really dangerous. First of all, it feels inauthentic to the teacher. They’re like, give me a break. And then second of all, it feels if you’re praising something that isn’t really a good practice or isn’t really happening, then the teacher can feel like they’re doing a good job in that area even if it’s not really going on. Mhmm. And so that that can be really dangerous. And you have to be a real person, but you also wanna find something to praise. So that can be that’s one of the more challenging aspects. But, you know, whenever you I like the way you have those different domains in your baseline observation because that can give you different areas to look at. So if there’s something really glaring that’s going on, like, perhaps the, management is a real issue, which is a very common issue, in classrooms whenever you go visit and provide feedback, maybe the management is a real concern, but they have those objectives posted. And their lesson was about the objective. So you can hunt down something from that original baseline, those different quadrant or there were five six? Five or six?

Nicole S. Turner [00:27:51]:

It’s five.

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:51]:

Five. Okay. There were five different objectives or different targets you were looking at. You can find something in that nice list to praise and to give positive feedback and to note even if they’re trying something. Sometimes things don’t work, but people tried it. And so you can say, hey. I noticed you tried this thing. Right? How do you feel about it? Well, I didn’t didn’t go so well. But you know what? That’s the process of learning. We’re gonna try stuff. It’s not always gonna work out. Yeah. But if teachers are being brave and putting themselves out there and trying something new, that’s a step in the right direction. So that’s really important to notice.

Nicole S. Turner [00:28:22]:

But you know what? I I wanna also say that coaches have to do the same.

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:26]:

They have

Nicole S. Turner [00:28:26]:

you have to put yourself out there. You have to get into those classrooms. You have to provide the feedback. You have to think through. You have to plan, to do some of those things as well. I think that is key to providing a good feedback

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:40]:

meeting. And that is kind of what I’m gonna ask you about next because that makes me think about, how stressful some of the work work of coaching is because building relationships with teachers is really hard sometimes. Yep. For lots of different reasons. I we just recently had our coaching reset on December 30. I say recently because, obviously, we’re recording this before the day is released. And so, I gave a session on coaching resistant teachers, and communicating with teachers who don’t want you around is a real bear sometimes. It can be stressful. It can make you feel sick. You check your email all the time afraid that they’ve responded to you and also hoping that they’ve responded to you. You have mixed feelings about it. You don’t know how they’re hearing what it is that you’re saying, and it could be just really a scary thing. But sometimes we have to have difficult conversations with teachers. Real honest things are going on that we have to address because nobody else is gonna address it. It’s our job to do that. So how do you prepare for that kind of a tricky conversation where you know it’s possible that the teacher isn’t gonna wanna hear what you have to say? So I mean, aside from, you know, like, I mean, beverages and, you know, crying and and and generally just, you know, being freaked out, you know, what do you actually do that’s helpful?

Nicole S. Turner [00:30:03]:

I think for me, my thing is just making sure that I have those key points Mhmm. Making sure that I have evidence. Again, that goes back to what we talked about earlier, making sure that we have evidence based observations that, you know, the best part of that kind of conversation is having that video, and for them to have saw themselves, and then they make the realization. But if you don’t have the video and and I know some districts are against it and unions and all that kind of stuff. But if you don’t have that video, just be prepared for the pushback. Mhmm. You have to make the prepare the mindset that you’re gonna stay in a positive space, and it’s gonna take a lot from you. But making sure that you then continue to spin it in a positive light. You know? So if I have a teacher that is completely, the classroom management issues are huge, I’m going to definitely try to if they try to continue to blame it on the kids, then I have to say, okay.

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:06]:

Right.

Nicole S. Turner [00:31:06]:

But what are some of the things that we can do that we can put in place? Well, because we already know what the students are gonna do. So how can we be proactive versus reactive?

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:15]:

Yes.

Nicole S. Turner [00:31:16]:

And be prepared. And so I’m prepared to make that positive or to try to always spend the conversation in a positive light. But I don’t want to not validate the teacher because they have valid points. I mean, sometimes we have students that are just out of control in the classroom, and it really, is a problem with the other students in the classroom. And you have to say, I understand that. Like, I know. Validate them on that, but then push them to then think about being proactive. If you know that Johnny comes in the classroom every day and he goes to the same corner and he does x, y, and z. Right? He does it every day. Right? Mhmm. So instead of, reacting to that, we already know. Let’s put a plan in place. Mhmm. Let’s talk to Johnny before he comes in the door and say, hey, Johnny. Today, I want you to do x, y, and z. You know, I want you to do this, this, this, and that. And so I always try to give teachers that perspective of being proactive versus reactive and then push them to think about that and try to keep my mindset in a positive light. So that’s kinda how I work with that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:30]:

Yeah. I love that. I think that’s a really important thing to remember is is to kind of have some sit and starters ready or some ideas ready that you can use to pivot back to so what are we gonna do? Yeah. So, yes, you’re right. This is a real issue. It totally true. It is totally true that this is happening and it’s a problem, and I can see that it’s affecting you and it’s affecting other kids. So what can we do? The only one we can control in the classroom is ourselves. That’s the line that I used to say to teachers a lot because, of course, you cannot control a child. You cannot control an adult. You cannot control anybody else. The only one that you can control is yourself. So knowing that, what can we do differently to approach the situation to create a different outcome?

Nicole S. Turner [00:33:11]:

Yep.

Chrissy Beltran [00:33:11]:

Yeah. That’s beautiful. So how do you keep a conversation from veering off topic? If teachers start to like you mentioned, well, so and so, you know, he every day he comes in and he does the same thing, but, you know, it’s his home life because the parents don’t do this and the parents this and that, and then this is and his teacher last year, but, you know, that’s a real problem we have on this campus. And so, eventually, like, all of a sudden, you realize, oh my gosh. We’re not even remotely talking about the purpose of this conversation anymore. And it took us one minute, and we are completely derailed. How do you get teachers back on focus?

Nicole S. Turner [00:33:40]:

Well, you know, I take the approach of sometimes they need to vent.

Chrissy Beltran [00:33:44]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:33:44]:

So I let them.

Chrissy Beltran [00:33:45]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:33:45]:

And then when they have completed their venting, I then come back to say, I understand that. Validate their concerns Mhmm. And then come back to, I understand that. Now how can we make sure that we do x, y, and

Chrissy Beltran [00:33:59]:

z? Right.

Nicole S. Turner [00:34:00]:

So I’m just always a redirector. Mhmm. I like to be more of a listener. Provide feedback, yes, but I also want to hear where the teachers come from. Mhmm. The good part about that is that, one, you get to see if you have a super negative teacher, if it’s all negative, if you have a optimistic teacher, if you have a teacher that’s super positive, or if you have a teacher that just doesn’t know. I mean, you know, it’s like you get so much from just listening to them. And then it helps you to be able to formulate your path, and know what role you’re gonna take with that teacher. So for me, it’s just always redirect. I do let them vent. I want them to feel like my office, me, we’re a team that they have the opportunity to be heard, even if I don’t do anything with the information. But at least they have spoken, they’ve said it, and then I just try to redirect them back. I I do plan an agenda.

Chrissy Beltran [00:34:53]:

Okay. Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:34:54]:

And, like, a checklist. I am a checklist Post it note woman all over the world. I am doing that in all aspects of my life.

Chrissy Beltran [00:35:03]:

Yes. I am right there with you. Yeah.

Nicole S. Turner [00:35:06]:

So I am going to do a checklist or these are the specific points that I need to make sure that we talk about, and so I’m always redirecting us back to that and making sure that we get some type of solution. And when we get that solution or next steps or, whatever, I check it off and move on to the next thing.

Chrissy Beltran [00:35:22]:

Okay. Great. So having that guide tells you whenever you veered off track, you know where you’re coming back to. So you’re not just sitting there floundering going, oh my gosh. I don’t even know what to do with this. You let them vent and then you say, okay. You’re right. This is true. That’s a real struggle, and I I can imagine how you feel about that. Yeah. You know, I’ve been there as well, and so let’s talk about what we can do. And then you come back to your agenda and redirect. Yeah. The redirecting is important. It can feel sometimes I’ve been in conversations with teachers, especially when I was a new coach where I felt like, oh my gosh. They’ve taken over the conversation, and I don’t know what to do to get us back on point here, because the negativity was just astounding or the, the overwhelm was clear. Right? And so responding to that emotion that they’re having and saying, you know what? I can see that you’ve got a lot of strong feelings about this.

Nicole S. Turner [00:36:09]:

Yes.

Chrissy Beltran [00:36:10]:

You can say that. You can say to a teacher something that acknowledges what they’re saying and what they’re doing and what their emotions are because it’s real. And sometimes it’s a surprise that somebody would call us out on something like that. I remember one year, I was really struggling as a teacher, and I was talking to my instructional coach, and I said, I just I feel really frustrated. And she goes, you know what? I’ve noticed that. And I was like, you can tell? I just I was shocked that I didn’t know what I was putting out in the world was frustration. I had no idea. Well, I mean, I had a little bit of an idea, but I didn’t expect her to say that. So I was like, wow. I really need to think differently about the way I’m presenting myself if this is so clear to other people. Yeah. And she was like, you know, that one day you made this comment, and I was like, that does not sound like Chrissy. And I was like, holy smokes. You’re right. It didn’t. That’s not who I usually am. So, you know, honesty is is good. Honesty is is good. You just have to say it in a firm but kind way. I can see that you’re frustrated. I can see that you’re upset. I’m I’m feeling that you’re you’re overwhelmed with all of these responsibilities, and I understand why because we’ve got a lot going on. You can respond to that and still say, so what can we do? Yep. Let’s come back to some next steps. Because if if teachers are not walking away from your conversations with next steps, then you’re not giving them anything.

Nicole S. Turner [00:37:25]:

Right? It’s pointless. It’s just us sitting around chatting for nothing.

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:29]:

Right? Which I feel like they get enough of that during faculty meetings. So Absolutely.

Nicole S. Turner [00:37:34]:

Oh, you’re gonna get us in trouble, Kristy. Hey.

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:37]:

It’s true. This is true talk for coaches. Okay? That’s why we’re here today. So, if listeners only walk away with one idea from you today, what would it be? If there’s one little nugget or one statement or one strategy you want them to have that they can apply or that would change their work, what would it be?

Nicole S. Turner [00:37:55]:

The biggest thing is to have the mind shift or a mind change or mindset or whatever it is that you wanna say, but make sure that you have that positive and that growth mindset within yourself. You have to check yourself. That’s the biggest thing that I’ve seen working with coaches over the last couple of years is that coaches blame teachers, teachers blame students, things are not happening. It’s just a blame game all around. And so rather than to be a part of that cycle, change your mindset and try to look at things from a positive perspective and always try to be a solution and not, an addition to the problem. Mhmm. And so being a solution, if people come to you with a problem, how can we solve it? What are some of the things that we can do? Because we can vent all day, guys. I mean, we can literally vent all day about all the problems and all the things. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:38:50]:

We have. We have. We know.

Nicole S. Turner [00:38:52]:

Yeah. And we know that they’re that they exist, but the biggest thing is that how can we solve them even if it’s a small step towards the bigger goal, but be on that path. So really have that growth mindset, be positive, and, you know, be encouraging. Mhmm. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:10]:

I love that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:10]:

The idea of what can we do together. We know that there are problems. What can we realistically do within our sphere of influence? Let’s figure something out. Let’s figure out a plan. That was something I tried to approach with my teachers a lot. Let’s figure out a plan. If we have a plan, we can try it. If we don’t have a plan, then we’re just floundering.

Nicole S. Turner [00:39:26]:

Yep. Yes. But to the perspective of making sure that the coach has that positive

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:32]:

Yes.

Nicole S. Turner [00:39:33]:

Mindset.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:33]:

Mhmm.

Nicole S. Turner [00:39:34]:

Because I’m telling you, I’ve worked with so many people who just don’t have a positive mindset and that growth mindset and and looking at it as a perspective of things can change versus we’re helpless. Mhmm. And so if you have that things can change mindset, your teachers kinda will follow a little bit. And I’m not saying a 100% of them will. Right. But there’s a good percentage that they will start to think that way as well. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:58]:

And they will trust that you can help them do that work. Absolutely. Absolutely. Beautiful. So okay. So there are a couple of things. First of all, where can coaches go to learn more from you?

Nicole S. Turner [00:40:08]:

Oh, well, they can visit my blog. It is called, Simply Coaching and Teaching, www.simplycoachingandteaching.com. Sometime in the next three months, it will be a new site. So if you go and you see it looks a little right now. But in in a few weeks after this podcast goes live, it should look a little better.

Chrissy Beltran [00:40:35]:

Awesome. That’s exciting. And then we have some other exciting news. Nicole and I are in cahoots. She is she’s a pusher, guys. She is that’s why I was like, how do you push teachers? Because I know she does because she pushes me all the time. She invited me to do the Simply Coaching Summit last summer, and I was like, that’s a long video, and I’m gonna need a haircut. And so that was very stressful for me, but I did it and I loved it. And then she pushed me to do the Simply Coaching reset in December, which was amazing. It was so great to, communicate with teachers about coaching resistant I mean, with coaches about coaching resistant teachers and really get, live feedback. That was a live event. So getting that live feedback from people, you know, in the moment was incredible to really hear about what their challenges were and what we can do to change the relationship we have with teachers. So Nicole has pushed me to try something new, and I’m super excited about it. Nicole, do you wanna talk about what we’ve got going on in February?

Nicole S. Turner [00:41:30]:

Yes. Yes. So it is exciting for us to talk about, one of the biggest things is that let’s be honest. From the the summer reset I mean, from the summer summit and then the summer reset the, reset that we just did, we get so much feedback from coaches that are saying, we don’t have PD. We don’t have anything specific for us. We don’t have training. And then the training that is provided is so expensive that either districts don’t have the money for it. And, of course, you know, our pockets are very limited Yeah. On our teacher salaries. So we are providing a membership program for instructional coaches, and I’m so excited for it. Yes. So, guys, this new membership program, which we haven’t named yet we’ll give it a name. Right, Christy?

Chrissy Beltran [00:42:24]:

We’ll give it By now, it has a name. By the time you’re listening to it, it has a name. You just know what it is at this time.

Nicole S. Turner [00:42:28]:

Well, that’s true. We don’t know it today. But by the time this goes live, we’ll have a name, guys. We’ll have a name. But, this coaching membership is all about providing support for instructional coaches all around the world. As we saw at the summit, we have people there from, France and people from Saudi Arabia. And so people are looking for the knowledge on how to be a a good coach and how to utilize some of those strategies we’re gonna talk about. All we we’re just gonna talk about a ton of topics. And so the instructional coaching membership is what I’ll call it right now. Yeah. It’s just it’s gonna be about a a video. So it’s a video platform. When you join, there will be some videos already in there, so you don’t have to wait. Chrissy and I are gonna get that together, and there will be videos that you already have when you join there. And then we’re gonna do a monthly live, webinar type, video where you guys can log in to it live. You’ll be able to see whatever it is that we’re teaching you. We’re gonna give you a a a note guide taking guide to go with it and some support materials that goes along with that. There’ll be some bonuses that we’ll give along the way, throughout the year. So if you’re a part of that, you’ll have that. So you’ll have that live video, and then we’ll come in, for our members only, and we’ll do a monthly q and a. So sometimes you’ll get both Chrissy and I. Sometimes you’ll get just Chrissy. Sometimes you’ll just get me. But you’ll have support for both of us. As far as instructional coaching, where we’ll do a q and a every month, you guys submit the questions to us, and we just give you, our point of view or our solutions based on our experiences. I think that’s the biggest key point. The resources are gonna be there, the videos, recording of all of those webinars, that you that you get. So if you stay with us for a year, hey. You’ll have almost, what, 15 video.

Chrissy Beltran [00:44:21]:

Yeah. That’s a lot of information.

Nicole S. Turner [00:44:23]:

20 yeah. Fifteen, twenty videos, that will be there to to that you can pop in at any time. If you’re frustrated and you you’re gonna work with a teacher or something like that, like, you you’re because, you’re dealing with resistant teachers, maybe you wanna walk, pop in and and watch the video to prepare you, to get ready for that meeting. We’ll take it step by step for a lot of the, the video. So it’s gonna be like a a training training at your fingertips, really.

Chrissy Beltran [00:44:52]:

Yes. Yeah. How to actionable practices, things that you can apply right away. And that’s what I’m most excited about because that is what coaches need. So thank you so much, Nicole, for joining us today. This was so much fun and so excited to talk about your feedback ideas. I love the video feedback practice, and I’m sure a lot of coaches are gonna implement that in their classrooms. Yes. That’s awesome. Yeah. And then, in the show notes, I’m gonna leave a couple of links for you. I’m gonna add a link to the membership so you can check out that, membership that’s going to be launching on February 11 and, that’s specifically for instructional coaches. And then I’m also going to leave a link for you for the five days plus one challenge for coaching resistant teachers That’s gonna help you walk through a road map, a basic road map of how you can start changing the trajectory of your relationship with teachers, and I’ll give you some insight on providing feedback to those teachers as well. Nicole, is there anything anywhere you wanna direct people in the show notes?

Nicole S. Turner [00:45:45]:

Sure. Hopefully, well, we could put the blog in there. And then I do have that video form, that people could

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:52]:

Oh, cool.

Nicole S. Turner [00:45:53]:

If they want. The video That’d

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:55]:

be great.

Nicole S. Turner [00:45:56]:

Form that I have. It’s like a buck or something. It’s not, like, super expensive. Yeah. We could probably

Chrissy Beltran [00:46:01]:

find a buck lying around. Yeah. It’ll be any well spent. So, yeah, we’ll put the link to that form as well in the show notes so you guys can check it out and add that to your coaching repertoire. So thanks for listening in. I’m really excited to be working with you guys via this new, mode of communication and, happy coaching.

Nicole S. Turner [00:46:19]:

Happy coaching.

Chrissy Beltran [00:46:26]:

Thank you for listening to Buzzing with Miss B, the coaching podcast. Want Want more coaching ideas? Check me out at buzzingwithmissb.com and on Instagram at buzzing with miss b. If you love the show, share it with a coach who would love it too, or leave me a review on iTunes. It’s free, and it helps others find this show. Happy coaching.