Coaching Cycles: A Coaching Call with Erica Denkenberger, Ep. 169 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Coaching Cycles: A Coaching Call with Erica Denkenberger, Ep. 169 Buzzing with Ms. B: The Coaching Podcast

Chrissy Beltran  00:00

Spending time in classrooms is one of the most impactful ways we can support teachers and grow our schools. But all of that classroom work can result in tons of documentation that really goes nowhere. If you’ve got piles of sticky notes all over your desk and random collections of fonts and all of your apps, it’s time to consolidate Connect. hub.io is a platform created by coaches. For coaches. It’s designed to help you organize your notes as you meet with educators and get powerful data on your impact in their classrooms. You can also use this information to support their professional learning and growth. Connect hub.io includes great features to help you protect the coach teacher relationship by providing different levels of account access for sharing only what you want with administrators. You can also customize reports to share specific kinds of information with your admin. This is such a great software for coaches. Check it out today at Connect hub.io to simplify your instructional coaching with a free trial.

Chrissy Beltran  00:56

As a literacy coach at an elementary school, I spent so much time trying to find the perfect supplemental resources for my teachers. That’s why I am so excited to share a special resource with you today. decodable texts are essential for students who are working on mastering phonics and primary grades especially, I have come across the sweetest decodable books that I love and my kindergarten daughter loves them to. They’re called Express readers. Each book has a complete storyline includes fun and funny characters like bug and duck. And the stories are engaging and increasing complexity over time as to the words and sentence structures on each page. Sticky words are identified in each book to help children with words they aren’t able to decode yet, or those with irregular spelling patterns. There’s a perfect resource for giving students at your school the practice they need and applying phonics skills, head to express readers.org and visit the Decodable Books page. There you can download a quick keys guide with teaching tips for each book, including teaching sticky word mapping, you can also get free sample decodable sent to your address, head to express readers.org If you’re building your phonics instruction, and you’re ready for some really great readers

Chrissy Beltran  02:11

you’re listening to buzzing with Miss B the coaching podcast where we believe that every teacher deserves a coach. And every coach does too. I’m Chrissy Beltran, an instructional coach, resource creator and coffee enthusiast, and I’m your host, stay tuned for practical tips and honest coaching talk that will help you coach with confidence.

Chrissy Beltran  02:35

Hey, coach, and welcome to episode 169 coaching cycle, a coaching call with Erica Dixon Berger, this season of of buzzing with Miss B, the coaching podcast ends the last week of November. And so one of the things that you can do that will really help me out and help you out too, is to take the survey at buzzing with MS b.com slash survey, you can complete the survey between now and the end of December. And you can win, you’ll be entered to win a $25 gift card from Amazon because the survey is going to give me important feedback that will help me figure out how I can plan the next season of the podcast in a way that actually suits your needs really, really well. So definitely take that survey, let me know a little about who you are, what will be helpful to you and it’s going to show up in season five of this podcast. Another thing that you can do in the offseason is to join me in my Facebook group. So I have a Facebook group that I just opened up a few months ago. And in this Facebook group instructional coaching with Miss B, I do a monthly live where we chat about the current coaching topic of the podcast. So next month in November is going to be all about assessments. And so you can join me in instructional coaching with Miss B and also in that survey, you’ll be able to let me know well what do you want to chat about in December and January during the offseason? We are wrapping up this month that has been all about coaching cycles. And over the last four episodes, we’ve talked about focusing our coaching cycle, work on goals, conducting coaching cycles of fewer meetings, five options for classroom work during coaching cycles, and I’ve answered your coaching cycle questions in the last episode. So today we’re actually talking with a coach who is working with teachers on their campus and is wanting to use coaching cycles as the method to do this. We’re going to dig into the reality of the challenges that coaches face right now. And we’re going to do some problem solving together. If you’re listening in real time. I think this is the perfect episode for October, this time of year because I can’t think of anything spookier than a coaching cycle gone wrong. I’ve been there. And it’s seriously scary. So I am so excited to admit our guest to this podcast and introduce her to you.

Chrissy Beltran  04:45

Welcome to the podcast, Erica.

Chrissy Beltran  04:48

Hi. I’m really glad you’re Oh yeah, of course. I’m really glad that you were able to join us. I know we’ve tried to get together in the past but reality of schools is tricky, so I’m glad we made it work out today.

Chrissy Beltran  05:00

Hi, I would love for you to share a little bit about yourself and your coaching role what your job looks like at your school.

Erica Denkenberger  05:08

Yeah, so I have been teaching for 12 years now. And I have done everything I like to say, I’ve been at preschool, I’ve been at sixth grade and everywhere in between really.

Erica Denkenberger  05:22

And taught literacy. And I have a master’s in literacy.

Erica Denkenberger  05:27

And I have been at my current school for three years now. And I have been this is my second year as the academic coach is what my title was changed to this year. Okay. So our building is a K through five building, and we have three classes at each grade level. And then we have six, well, five special areas as well. And I coach them all right, so Okay, so what is as you’re working through coaching cycles? Or have you implemented them yet? What are your main challenges around coaching cycles that you’re finding right now? Yeah, so we just actually say will be like, our first month of school will be done. So this year, we have not officially put them into

Erica Denkenberger  06:18

practice yet. However,

Erica Denkenberger  06:22

last year was the first time that my school really has done

Erica Denkenberger  06:27

like a true coaching model. So, so last year, a big struggle was just even, like trying to get people to come to a meeting that was then going to be a coaching cycle, where we were going to talk about what you did, and what you could do differently next time, or what workflow and things like that. So this year, some of that is spilling over a little bit. You know, we have had the same curriculum for a long time, which is good, because a lot of people, you know, know what they’re doing curriculum wise. But last year, and again, spilling into this year, we have made a big push to get on the the science of breeding train. And that was like a very big change in our building. So I’m really the the biggest struggle with coaching. And I think right now in my building, at least, and with having coaching cycles, and things like that is not everybody is necessarily buying into that yet.

Erica Denkenberger  07:37

So like that’s, that’s been, you know, the biggest thing. So a lot of times we haven’t really been able to talk about,

Erica Denkenberger  07:47

like, specific

Erica Denkenberger  07:49

digit tragedies and things like that, because I’m still I feel like a salesperson, like with that.  Right. So I’m still trying to like, get everybody on board with that.

Chrissy Beltran  07:59

Mm hmm. Yeah, it is. It is very challenging to move and change philosophies. One of the things that I have found helpful is to have teachers kind of look at okay, well, what is this going to look like? And what actually has to change because not everything has to change, some things are still we still know that they are good, you know, and there may be some things that they’re already doing that they have in place that they’re going to be able to hold on to. So sometimes people are getting really hung up on pieces that are not even something you need to worry about yet. You know, it’s like baby steps, right? So we get really hung up on like, people are freaking out about, oh, I have to use a different phonics curriculum or a phonics curriculum. People are freaking out about things that you’re like, let’s just do something and get really good at it. So one thing that might be helpful when you’re looking at your teachers in terms of okay, where are we even going to start and working individually with each other? Because you’re right, you’re right now what you’re talking about is whole school change. And so then you’re like, how am I going to transfer this into small, like individual one on one coaching? You might at the end of a PD, say, Okay, I know that was a lot, right? This is a lot of information that we’re getting. And I know it can feel overwhelming. And it’s natural to have some resistance to new information. And it kind of acknowledged that I actually have a podcast episode that came out this season about making a shift into something new and I had signs of reading in mind as I created it, because that is an area that a lot of literacy coaches specifically and also just general, like you said, academic coaches are moving their teachers into this in this area, and teachers are like, Nope, I do not want to go. So that episode, one of the things that I talk about is having teachers identify maybe at the end of a PD, where you’ve presented a lot, one thing that they feel like they could start with.

Chrissy Beltran  09:46

And so like at the end of that PD, you want basically like a piece of paper that’s like cut into or something because you want a commitment from them that tells you what they’re committing to work on. You need that documentation because that’s how you can follow up

Chrissy Beltran  10:00

and start coaching cycles with them. But they also need it because sometimes we turn it in and we’re like, okay, whatever. And we’re like, we leave the meeting and we leave our PD and then we go back into exactly what we were already going to do. So they need that little piece of paper to travel with them and say, I committed to start with this, what is one thing you can do this week or next week or in this month? And so then if you have that from them, then you can follow up and say, Hey, I saw that the one of the things you were going to try to do is integrate more multimodal practice, in phonics instruction, I saw that one of the things that you were going to try to do is really intentionally plan your unit. So you’re building background knowledge, and you’re making connections to your content areas, whatever it is of this, whatever piece of the science of reading, you’re kind of focusing on with that PD, if they can identify one step, then you can follow up with them and say, I can help you do that.

Chrissy Beltran  10:49

I guess this is what you want to focus on. And it kind of doesn’t matter what it is. Because they’re trying something at this point, like try something try anything.

Erica Denkenberger  10:59

Yeah, that’s actually I’ve been like, this year, what I was thinking about, I, I run like our PLCs, as it stands right now, because that’s a new thing. And just coaching cycles in general. Yeah, I was thinking about that whole, like idea of next steps, like, what’s something you can do, like tomorrow or next week or something that like, could be quick enough that, you know, the PDF is it doesn’t just, like go away or go out into the air and never come to fruition? You know? But yeah, so you know, and that’s the other part that I see for myself, too, is like that follow up with it have. So this is what you said, your next step was going to be like, so. So what are we gonna do now? What can I What can I do for you? What can I help you with? Or, like, how can we make that happen? Kind of thing? That’s kind of validated that you said that I like I feel good about that.

Chrissy Beltran  11:46

Okay, good. Yeah, you were already kind of thinking in that direction, right. So, you know, the way you could follow up on it. So it’s really tangible is you could actually provide, like a coaching menu of different ways that you could support them in implementing that thing. So if they didn’t say, Well, I want to revamp my phonics lessons, because I’m just, you know, randomly pulling out phonics skills. And instead, I want to try following this curriculum that you gave us or whatever, then you could say, Okay, I have four different ways that I could support you in that. And you can show them a document that you make that actually says, These are four different ways I can spare you, I can model a lesson, I can co teach a lesson, I can set up an opportunity for you to go observe this and so and so’s room, because they’ve already started implementing this curriculum. And I, you know, you know that they have kind of a good relationship. And like, you give them little choices, or I can just observe you and provide you with some feedback, we can watch a video together, you give them a few little options. And then that is how you can kind of initiate that one on one coaching with very limited number of choices. Because sometimes when we’re like, hey, I can help you with that. What do you want me to do? And they’re like, I have no, what would that even look like? Especially if they’ve never had coaching? If they haven’t been coached before, they’re like, I don’t know, what could you do. And you’re like, I’m, so we want to have it, if we have a document, we can show them, this is what I can do. This is how I can help. So preparing some little document about like coaching menu about the services you’re prepared to provide. And then following up on those teachers that you feel the best about starting with, like, there are some teachers that I call them friendlies that you’re just going to feel better about working with, you’re going to feel confident in their classrooms, because it’s not chaos, at least it’s pretty structured, it makes sense to you like it’s a comfortable space for you, you feel comfortable with the teacher, she’s there, they’re pretty friendly, they seem to be welcoming, and they’re interested to try something. So all you need is one or two to start with, then once you go through your coaching cycle with them, you can leverage that into other other rooms. Yeah, I appreciate that, too. Because this this first month, I really just been like, I’m gonna go in all the rooms, and I just want to kind of like, see what’s going on and where we’re at. And, you know, just to make myself visible as much as possible. And there are some that I just jump right in, and the teachers are like, Yeah, this is awesome. Like, we’re gonna bounce off of each other, we’re gonna just co teach together and this one. And then there’s other ones, you know, that kind of give me that I like, what are you doing? Yeah, kind of they are though, like, I can always tell to the ones that like when I walk in, they like stop, like, almost like, we need to have a conversation right now. And then the other ones just continue to teach, like, no matter what. And then just like, you know, let me do my thing, or help them or not even help them. But just, you know, I get excited, right? I haven’t got to do that in the classroom for for a couple of years now. So it’s exciting when I can go in there and help them. So yeah, so I kind of already have like a good good feel for that. And we, I mean, luckily, we had a really good

Erica Denkenberger  14:35

staff like retention rate this year, too. So a lot of these people I’ve been working with for a couple years. So that’s been that’s been nice, too. So I kind of have those people that I can like practice with already. Yeah. And so yeah, so I appreciate that for sure. Okay, great. Yeah, it’s the, the what you mentioned about staff retention is so important because, like you said last year, it was just introducing things kind of figuring out what’s going on you

Chrissy Beltran  14:59

weren’t doing a lot of one on one coaching yet. And that is normal for the first year to take some time for things to get going. And for people to get comfortable things, people not showing up to meetings on time, people not bringing their stuff to PLC sessions, people showing up PDS and then having no intention of doing what was mentioned in the PD, all that is sadly common, I don’t want to say normal, because I don’t want to make it like it’s fine. It’s not fine, like isn’t part of the job, you know, and I know teachers are asked to do ridiculous amount of things right now. And that’s why we’re one of the reasons we’re seeing so much turnover, but certain pieces of it, you kind of show up to dues. I mean, if you’re told to do something at any job, you pretty much that you are being asked to do it.

Chrissy Beltran  15:43

And so I think that it is to be expected that there is a big challenge that first year just getting things out in place, you’re just kind of exposing teachers to what you know what’s happening and getting used to these routines of showing up and bringing whatever they need to bring. And then the next year, you can start to see the real change in instruction. Because those basic things have been established, it does take some time, for sure, for change to become common. And but I feel like after the first year, people have things under their belt, that becomes normal. And then you can actually start to grow some of the practices more. So you’re in a really good spot right now, because you set up some habits last year, and this year, you’re gonna be able to capitalize those habits and translate them to instruction. It’s like, that’s what my, in one of my first it was like my fifth or sixth episode of the podcast I had on my principal, and she talked about just you’re just building habits at first because she was at a school that had not had any sort of really growth in a while. And so it does take some time building habits is what she said, you just put the structures in place and you build a habit. So that’s kind of where you were.

Erica Denkenberger  16:51

Yeah. And you had an episode, I think a few weeks ago about PLCs, specifically. And I’ve listened to it like three times. Because Because in there multiple things in there, like I think I think it was when you were talking you were saying like so the very first year, we were just like getting to a meeting at all right? Like coming to the meeting. And then the next year, we’re like, Okay, so now we’re gonna like be at this meeting, and we’re going to talk about data, you know, so like, that’s kind of where I feel like I’m at and last year, because this is my first time in this role. Like, there was many days when I was like, Well, I’m failing at this, like, this is not going well. Like, why isn’t everybody doing what I want them to do? And like, when I was a teacher, I did this minor thing. Right? You know? Yeah, so I feel so much better this year, because I’ve not only gone through that, and, and kind of like have a different perspective now. But then when I listened to things like, you know, like, like, you’re the one about PLCs. Like, okay, so this is where everybody’s at, right? Like, and it’s hard to remember, sometimes, like, you got to start somewhere, and just the fact that people were coming, and weren’t complaining about campaign and they were here on time, and they you know, and we got something out of it like that, that’s just forming that habit and getting them, you know, so then this year, it was like, it wasn’t a fight. Now we’re gonna, maybe there’ll be, you know, some struggles with like, specifically what we’re going to talk about, but at least like, it wasn’t like a struggle to, to know that that’s gonna be on your schedule, and you’re gonna do that every week, you know, cuz I don’t want to just be like, Oh, we have that meeting. Like, I want it to be a productive thing. So and I think that the same thing with, like, the coaching cycles, when we have those meetings, too, like, it’s me, again, everybody knows us to me. And now, like, you already know, kind of what to expect a little bit. And now, you know, now it’s like just diving into that next step of it. Yeah, I think that’s a good point. Kind of like people like people, because you had a good retention rate people do know you a little better than they did last year. Did you read? Have you been able to, like explicitly introduce this is the least of the ways that I can support you in the classroom? Actually have kind of like a session or a meeting about that? Yeah, I don’t know if I would say like, as explicitly as maybe I would like to or need to, I guess. But yes, we have, like, when we bring all our staff back, I kind of do like my introduction of just who am I? And then what my role is here. And yes, in that time, I have, like a list of things of these are the things I can do. But I haven’t really, like taken time to go back to it and say, like, don’t forget, or in this moment, right now.

Erica Denkenberger  19:28

You know, like, I know that you’re maybe struggling with this thing, or the kids are so like, what, what can I do? Here’s my list. Again, there’s my menu. And again, you know, like, I haven’t really been able to go back to that yet. Which I really need need to do, actually. And as we’re talking about this, it’s kind of like on my brain of where can I

Erica Denkenberger  19:51

put that in, you know, yeah. And it’s not sometimes like sometimes I feel like I’m forcing myself on people. But I don’t want

Erica Denkenberger  20:00

I feel like that you know, and I think if I can go back to something I already presented to them

Erica Denkenberger  20:05

we’re talking about right, then it’s easier. It doesn’t feel like I’m just like, No, no, I’m gonna make you do this right now like so, you know, like, it doesn’t feel right.

Chrissy Beltran  20:14

And if you give people choice within that it feels less pushy as well. So like, if you say you, I mean, you could even on the little paper, we talked about where people identify something they’d like to do, they could even select, like, is there a method on here, I’m giving you four choices, which one of these do you think would work best. And then you could choose right there, like, they can circle it, and say, Oh, actually, I would love to watch a video on this. And then you can follow up with those that you think are or that you’re feeling like you’re in the place to follow up with. And then you can, um, you can follow up with everybody. But absolutely try to focus on starting with those friendlies. Because that gives you the good practice you need and a good experience with it. And it gives them a good experience with it, too. So then they are like little commercials saying no, no, it was good. It wasn’t scary. You know, she didn’t come in and just tell me everything I was doing wrong. She helped me look at the curriculum, and I feel so much better now. Now I’m prepared. And you can kind of use that to kind of turn the tide a little bit on the general sentiment about working with a coach. Yeah, that’s a really good point, too. Because, you know, I’m sure from working in schools, like, I mean, worried about anything just travels so fast. It’s true.

Chrissy Beltran  21:21

And that’s, that’s a good point. That’s another reason you want to work with a good strong teacher, because you don’t want it to seem like I’m just here to fix the classroom that need fixing, that is a representative model that, uh, we see a lot of coaching. And that makes it super hard to work with most people. Because let’s say that you’re a strong teacher, well, I don’t, I don’t need help like that classroom needs help. Or if you’re a struggling teacher, you’re like, I don’t want to be on that list.

Chrissy Beltran  21:46

So if you can start with people who aren’t good, strong teachers and would like to try something new. That’s one way to get it rolling. Yeah, that’s great. That’s, that’s a really good point.

Erica Denkenberger  21:57

I have to remember that. I feel like sometimes some of the stuff that like you can’t remember in the moment, sometimes it’s true. It’s true. Yeah. It can be overwhelming. That’s why I do the podcast. So you can like you said, you can listen to three or four. Yeah, that validation is nice.

Chrissy Beltran  22:12

And I actually have a free download that I’m going to attach to this episode, and all the episodes in the month of October that are about coaching cycles. And I’m gonna put in there, that’s like three ways that you can get teachers excited about coaching cycles, or at least in the engage in initiating them so that you can grab that as well. From this episode, it’ll be at buzzing with mystery.com/episode 169. That’s where that little download will be just three different ideas and a couple of tools that could help. So then, as you are thinking about, you know, moving into coaching cycles, and getting them started with somebody who’s friendly and you feel comfortable in their room, what questions do you have about that process?

Erica Denkenberger  22:50

Oh, my gosh, well, so moving into those cycles, one of the one of the things that I struggled with last year was like, so when there is like some kind of uncomfortable conversation or like, something that

Erica Denkenberger  23:06

like, something that came up a lot last year is like,

Erica Denkenberger  23:09

so we would sit down and

Erica Denkenberger  23:12

there would be a portion where there would be some kind of feedback given and like when, when my feedback is just like, totally different from what the teacher self awareness. Feedback is, I guess, then then it was kind of like we were talking in circles. Or that I would always be like, No, I did that. Because or I can’t do that. Because, you know, so I wonder, like, with things like that,

Erica Denkenberger  23:37

because I don’t want to give up on those people. And I don’t think they’re necessarily being resistant. I think it’s just with this, like, new idea of, you know,

Erica Denkenberger  23:47

I don’t know, not not being perfect, and like, everybody’s always growing, right? Or we’re always trying things and like you kind of you kind of know what you’re signing up for hopefully, when you get into education, like we’re just gonna keep changing and growing and doing all this stuff. So I guess, like those kinds of things, any advice or any like thing that you’ve dealt with like that in the past? Where your opinion what their opinion is, I guess, are just totally opposite.

Chrissy Beltran  24:18

Yeah. Yeah, I think one thing that you can do is a couple things here. One thing like school wide, it might be

Chrissy Beltran  24:25

valuable to work on, like how we change and growth mindset and things like that, that might be something relevant to bring up with your whole faculty population. And not like just a conversation like, oh, you know, we need to have a growth mindset, not like that, but like actually learning about how do we become better at our jobs, it doesn’t mean that you are bad or wrong. It means that we are always figuring out something different like I have.

Chrissy Beltran  24:50

There are lots of things that I look back in the classroom and think you know what, that was pretty good. And then there are things I look back for whenever I was in the classroom think I would not do that again, or I would do that

Chrissy Beltran  25:00

so differently. And so I think that it’s okay to learn things, but it can feel very.

Chrissy Beltran  25:08

In the classroom, you feel like you have to defend yourself a lot. And I think some of that has come from the culture of teaching and education in this country, that teachers feel like they always have to defend themselves. For some reason, teachers are even afraid of the most mild principal, sometimes, you know, even a principal who is not threatening, who’s not judgey. Sometimes, Parent Teachers are still really uncomfortable with that person. It’s just something about authority and the nature of the job and lots of dynamics happening there. So I think growth mindset and looking at like, Okay, well, how do we learn? Why do we like this was with the kids, it doesn’t mean that they’re wrong, because they don’t know something, they’re getting better at something, and we can get better at something. And that’s the value of coaching. I mean, you know, professional baseball players who make bazillions of dollars, have people look at their swing and tell them to do it differently. People who do not make bazillions of dollars to play professional baseball, right? So it’s okay, we all get feedback from a different perspective. And it’s about perspective. And when you’re in your classroom, you get stuck in your bubble, sometimes, just like as a coach, we get stuck in the bubble of our school. And it’s hard to see things from a different perspective. And that’s why we talk to coaches, at other schools, and in other places, because it’s like, oh, wow, I didn’t, I’ve been looking at my own four walls. And so it’s normal that that happens. Something that you could do with that those individual teachers, is, maybe if you’ve noticed, has been an issue in the past, maybe the support that you offer them is visiting another classroom or video coaching. So the benefits of that are that they see somebody else do it. So visiting another classroom is great, because it’s, they’re less likely to. I mean, I, you know, I’ve seen I set up a lot of classroom visits, even with people who were kind of like resistant to my support, but I got them to go visit another teacher. And I have never seen them be outright disrespectful or rude, or anything to that other teachers, they were always I was shocked at how kind they were sometimes and how much they got out of that lesson in another room that they would not have gotten from a dialogue with me. Because they can’t that’s a really good point. It changes everything. I did, I did actually do that with two, with two of our teachers last year, I gave him the opportunity.

Erica Denkenberger  27:22

And yeah, it was it was definitely like, it was a game changer for sure.

Erica Denkenberger  27:29

And then

Erica Denkenberger  27:31

I did I did notice that like, so one of the one of the ones that we one of the teachers that I did that with was specifically to see like, how her and her ta could work together where it wasn’t just like the TA kind of standing in the back doing nothing, the whole thing. So we have a couple other really great teams in our school. So I was like, great, we can use this, you know.

Erica Denkenberger  27:55

And then I guess after something like that, like then continuing to follow up or like how to continue to follow up because I saw like a big change right after. And then like, as the year kept going on is kind of like slipped back,

Erica Denkenberger  28:10

you know, to how it was. And I didn’t want to be like, oh, you should go down to look, look at that again, because you’ve already seen, right?

Erica Denkenberger  28:18

But yeah, but I think that the more we can, we can have people do that, that that’s great. And we even so my school is like unique, because on Fridays, every Friday, we have early dismissal for our kids. So for the last two hours of of our team, like Teacher Day, is just PD every single Friday. Sometimes it’s like work time, but usually it’s it’s some kind of PD. And actually we’re pushing forward this year with like,

Erica Denkenberger  28:43

certain things, calling out other staff members to do them instead of just like me, the principal, our behavioral team, you know, that kind of kind of thing. So that you can see that there are other resources, like in the building for certain things.

Erica Denkenberger  28:59

And then we can partner and like maybe, if a third grade teacher was talking about their behavior management system or something like that, and you liked what they did, but you want to like see it in action. Great. So they did that PD on that, and then I can come in, and I can like help you find your time or I can help you. Like I can take over a class for you. And you can go watch them and so so yeah, so I think we’re we’re putting some of that stuff into place. So again, just validation. Yeah, it’s awesome. Building those relationships, building your true PLC across your school, that whole school is your learning community, you know, and helping teachers learn from each other and giving them opportunities is great. So you could set up hey, you know, you saw this person present on grammar, and you really, you know, don’t feel confident teaching grammar Do you want to go visit and see what it looks like in their classroom? You know, you could use that as a way to to build even more open classrooms and really get those doors open to each other.

Chrissy Beltran  29:59

Another thing you can

Chrissy Beltran  30:00

Think about is, like you mentioned with this teacher who went to see the how the user TA and then over time, it just kind of like end back the way it was, is maybe like, hey, just doing a little self reflection check in. So I just want you to think about these questions in terms of your own teaching and how you are input, you know, really working towards that goal that we had discussed earlier in the year. And then you can give them a couple little questions to think about, maybe they can just write about it for a couple of minutes. And then they can discuss with you, you know, so you know, in terms of whatever goal you had previously set, like for that first coaching cycle, which was obviously about how to use the TA, like this, think about how we are, what our work looks like now in response to that goal. And what are some things that we can some adjustments that we can make, because over time, it’s just normal to have to make adjustments. So that might be one way to do it, to have them kind of self reflect a certain number of weeks after like six weeks after or something like that, if you’re no longer working really closely with that teacher, you can just kind of do a little check in.

Erica Denkenberger  31:04

Great. Thanks.

Erica Denkenberger  31:07

It does happen with new learning for sure. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, another question that I was thinking about with thinking about poaching cycles and things like that.

Erica Denkenberger  31:18

So, you know, we, the school that I work in as a low income, school, and low performing.

Erica Denkenberger  31:26

So sometimes, especially towards like, the middle of the year, when you’re really in the thick of it, you know, I find that

Erica Denkenberger  31:34

whether it’s a specific coaching cycle, and I just have one teacher in front of me, or we have a PD or a PLC, or really any of the things when we start to get data, and we’re like, either not seeing growth, or it’s like, no, we have some kids that are, he’s actually just talking to a first grade teacher about this other day, like, there’s, there are some kids that we have that are,

Erica Denkenberger  31:56

like, below grade level so much that even if they made a substantial amount of growth, like it still wouldn’t bring them there, you know, so sometimes it’s really hard to get out of,

Erica Denkenberger  32:08

like, there’s just nothing we can do, you know, like that idea of,

Erica Denkenberger  32:14

like, where, how do we keep going when, when it’s just like, even the

Erica Denkenberger  32:20

the lowest performing, or the best performing low performing, you know, like that kind of thing. And like we talked about, like our MTSS, and RTI and things like that, and like our triangle is 100% flipped upside down. So,

Erica Denkenberger  32:36

but like, for me, and my perspective, I’m like, but look at like the progress we did make, on, you know, A, B, and C.

Erica Denkenberger  32:45

But it is really, really difficult sometimes, for some people to really see, like, I feel like I’m putting in so much work, and it’s not making any difference.

Erica Denkenberger  32:55

Sometimes, you know, or it is making a difference, and it’s still just feels like so long to go, it’s like you’re walking down the hallway, and you just feel like it just keeps getting stretched, and you’re never gonna get to the end kind of thing.

Erica Denkenberger  33:06

So, you know, that’s, that’s really my other thing of when I started these coaching cycles, like I don’t, I can’t always just be like, Nope, you’re doing so great. So let’s keep going. So, like maybe some, some real life, like strategies to use when when,

Erica Denkenberger  33:23

you know, it’s winter, and we start to get that, like, you just feel down already. And then

Erica Denkenberger  33:29

the second data point comes in and you feel like it’s not enough girls. And you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, I think one, one thing I’m hearing is that this is the tier one instruction

Chrissy Beltran  33:40

that so many kids are in tier three, as far as like their what their data shows. That’s an argument for changing your tier one instruction into SR a line practices.

Chrissy Beltran  33:52

So that’s actually that conversation that you’re having with teachers where they’re like, oh, it’s there just can’t and it’s not working, and they’re stuck, and they’re not moving. All those things tell us we need to change to your one.

Chrissy Beltran  34:04

So that is one vehicle that you can use for the SR strategies you’re trying to get teachers to actually implement. It’s something to think about. Because you can’t intervene out of a tier one problem. If your tier one instruction is the problem. You can’t intervene with everybody. That means that our tier one isn’t working. And I worked at a school that was a very academically struggling school, and they had been low performing. And we did have to change a lot of our tier one instruction and think about why is this happening? And what can we do? Because the questions are always well, what you know, these kids and this kids and this kid, these are the kids that we have, what do we need if we need to change everything, to better meet their needs? And I guess that’s what we have to do. Because they’re the ones we have, we don’t have the ones who are benefiting from whatever we’re doing. We need to do something different. And those are hard conversations. But I think that that’s the long game. You know, as far as you know, working with teachers and looking

Chrissy Beltran  35:00

Get Data and just being super deflated because I, I get that and I remember when teacher would come in and Miss Chrissy, she’s she still called me Miss Chrissy like I’ve known her for 10 years, Miss Chrissy, I just, it’s just, I don’t know what I’m I know that they they’re slow to start and I know it’s gonna get better, but I just, I was just like this whole like emotional, oh my goodness like she had poured her heart into her work and she wasn’t seeing the results. And so there are a couple of things that we did when we talked about how data is just information. And it tells us what our kids can do on in that kind of assessment at that time. It’s not, it doesn’t, it’s not inherently bad or good. It tells us what they can do at that point in time on that kind of an assessment.

Chrissy Beltran  35:41

The other thing is, okay, well, how can we is there a way that we could maybe change up how we’re assessing? Because if we’re looking at data point one and data point two, and there’s nothing in between? That’s also an issue? Do we have like data points in between that we’re collecting maybe common assessment data throughout?

Chrissy Beltran  35:59

And so they kind of have a better idea of how things are going so they can adjust instruction? Or are they waiting for that second data point?

Erica Denkenberger  36:09

Yeah.

Erica Denkenberger  36:12

Yeah, so we obviously we haven’t gotten into it yet, because it’s, it’s this the first month of school, but we, I think, yeah, last year, like a lot of the focus was really just on those, like, universal screening data points that we have the three times a year, you know, um, and that’s where we’re, it was almost like holding your breath to see what the progress is going to be.

Erica Denkenberger  36:34

So So yeah, so I think putting more time into the other assessments, so because we have like unit assessments, we have MIDI units assessments, we have, like, benchmark things that happen throughout the year, we have all these other pieces that we can definitely put into place. So that yes, you’re right, like between the first and the middle and the middle of in the last, where you can see where the winds are.

Chrissy Beltran  37:01

And that’ll give you more information to respond also, because if we’re waiting, we have a data point, and I know that you’re just barely getting these processes going and you’re writing to it first, you just get the big stuff in place, right? Because it hasn’t even been in place. And now you can start saying, Okay, now we need little checks throughout, because how are we adjusting our instruction? If we don’t know? How do we what are we going to do if we realize that all the kids are struggling with with, you know, diagraphs, but we already moved on. And we’re not even intervening in that area, because we didn’t notice until our data point check in December. So if we can adjust our instruction throughout, and our intervention can be better, because it’s based on data that, hopefully, will eliminate some of that high pressure high stakes assessment in December. And at least it’ll make it feel like at least, if it’s not what you want, at least you knew it was coming, like teachers who are surprised by their data. That’s a concern. Right? Whenever we’re like, oh, I didn’t know that was I thought they were doing better than that. Oh, well, then you’re not getting you’re not meeting their needs, because you didn’t even know what they were. That’s a problem, right? Yeah, for sure. So that I have seen that for sure. Before as well, where it’s like, we really, but I know that they can do dah dah, dah, dah? And I’m like, How can you know?

Chrissy Beltran  38:19

Yeah. So that’s what those little checks could come in with, like it was unit assessments or smaller assessments, common assessments, that you could actually use that to feel your PLC sessions as well, where you’re looking at that data and making plans to adjust based on what you see. So that’s another thing that could help. So going off of that.

Erica Denkenberger  38:40

So I we have, I do have some teachers that, like both of the our math and our ELA curriculum are really like scripted curriculums. So I do have some teachers that are like, well, I want to do this with fidelity. So I’m going to do exactly what it says. And so sometimes it is really hard to talk to them about like, Yeah, but what what are you seeing that they can and can’t do? What do you what is the data showing you so that you can kind of change that. And then

Erica Denkenberger  39:10

sometimes it’s like, we don’t even know how to change it. And me, me included at times, where I’m like, I don’t even know what what, like how to how to adapt to it, or what the idea would be, because, like, the same people that I have that conversation with, they’re like, but but if I if I spend too much time on this lesson, or if I keep going over it or you know that I’m going to be off pacing and then this and then we won’t get through all the units by the end of the year, you know, it’s like this whole snowball effect all these things so so what also what about having like those kinds of conversations with with the teachers that like to stick to the script, and then also can’t, you know, figure out the pacing. Yeah, I as a teacher, I was very much like, if I don’t if I don’t get to the last unit but my kids

Chrissy Beltran  39:59

Master all the other ones, you’re welcome. Because I can tell you those kids who got through the last unit haven’t mastered everything. You know what I mean? I feel like it’s better to teach five things well than eight things badly. But that’s my own personal struggle, because schools do not like that. Yes. Don’t like that. When and when you just said that, too. So like, we

Erica Denkenberger  40:22

this is just an example. So we have have that sort of situation in pockets, right. So like, in, for example, like our second grade math curriculum, like the very last unit, often we don’t get to, but it’s like all geometry. So then they go to third grade, and they didn’t get the last unit in third grade, either, which was all geometry. And then, you know, like, that sort of thing. Like I saw last year, when I got into those, like, we had a lot of fifth graders that like literally didn’t know, shapes. And so then I think you’d like but how, how? Because obviously, this was a trend. So like, how can we do that? And I, and I can’t blame anything else on COVID. Like, I’m so sick of hearing everybody believe in everything and COVID, you know, so I was like, when I was going back, kind of back in like reflecting a little bit though. And thinking about like, where do we get to and then sitting through our PLC meetings last year, and like listening to the teachers who have taught this for years saying like, well, we always don’t make it to this, or we haven’t gotten there. Yeah. Well, this makes so much sense now. Yeah, they’re all of them are not getting to the same thing. Yeah.

Erica Denkenberger  41:27

So we just like totally skip that basic feel, basically.

Chrissy Beltran  41:31

But yeah, that’s not the way that I recommend doing it.

Erica Denkenberger  41:35

It sounds like so, so locked into that like mastery thing, though. I’m like, okay, but it’s like January, but they’re also not like, yeah. So what are we going to do here? Yeah, they’re also not getting to the other things at all, which is an instrument? Well, so I think that looking at,

Chrissy Beltran  41:54

like, I found that going slow at first helped me go fast later, if that made sense. You know, because they were good at things that were important. So one thing that might be good to do is to identify what are those really essential standards for each grade levels that kids have got to see. So like, we went through, I remember one year and looked at our standards, and we’re like, Okay, this is introduced in third grade. And if it is not taught in third grade, kids do not see it again until sixth grade.

Chrissy Beltran  42:18

So if they miss it, they have no clue they’ve never been exposed to it. And they’re not going to see it again in the standards until middle school. And that’s not fair to them at all. So we went through and like identify, like, we had to get really comfortable with vertical alignment and look at what is essential. What are your essentials? Not teaching any of geometry is a problem. That is not good. You know, not teaching any of something is an issue. But I did find going slow at first to go fast later was better, because the curriculum at the beginning always moves so quickly. My kids had no clue. Like, if they don’t master plates value, you can’t teach them long division. Yeah, you know, and that was the issue is we’d move faster these these units that were really foundational to later things, you know, and that’s a problem have to get good at the foundational stuff, I think and the mats where you spend your time. And if you have to make up time you make up time on something that is not as essential to every other thing. And the other thing to think about is what is intervention look like? So do they have small group intervention? Do they have a dedicated time? What is their tutoring look like? How do they decide who goes in there? How do they decide what they cover? Because it sounds like if we have a class full of kids who didn’t do well in something, yeah, that’s a whole group reteach something was wrong with my teaching. But if we have, like, six kids that didn’t do well in something that’s a small group.

Chrissy Beltran  43:37

So like looking at, well, where do we meet the students needs? And how do we differentiate that intervention? Might be a place to go with those meetings? Yeah, that’s, that’s a really good point. And

Erica Denkenberger  43:49

I was I was laughing, because what you were talking about with actually, the place value thing, like, I literally sat here at the table, and I’m sitting at right now with my third grade team yesterday and had that exact same cup.

Erica Denkenberger  44:04

We’re zooming through this, but they’re not understanding anything. Like what can we do? And I’m like, make them know it. Yeah. It’s a big one, guys. We wouldn’t do a lesson to say like, what should we do? And I’m just like, Nah, like, you got to, you got to make sure that they know or you’re, the whole rest of the curriculum, or the whole rest of the year is based on that.

Chrissy Beltran  44:24

Right? And so maybe you’ll be able to if they get really good at something, but you can find places to say, okay, we can cut this unit a little bit because it’s not as essential or because they they understood it easily. Sometimes kids just get like geometry is not hard, because usually at the third grade level, you can do it pretty fast. If it’s hands on, and it’s engaging, and then you bridge to paper. But if they don’t get exposed to it at all, that’s a problem. So there are places you can cut things down and do them in a shorter time. But you have to really look at that that pacing guide and say, where do we need the extra time? Where can we take that extra time? And I know it’s not perfect at all. It’s never going to be because there’s not enough time to teach all

Chrissy Beltran  45:00

All the things to mastery or to any level that we want to teach kids. But if we are not thoughtful about where we spend our time, then we have a real problem. No, yeah. And you mentioned like vertical alignment. And that was something that was like some of our work we did before our kids entered, you know, always that time, you’d come back before kids. And that was some of the the work that we did then. And this is the, as far as I know, this is the first time that that’s really been been introduced. Because last year, even to just go over the standards, you know, we got to a certain point in the year where I felt like, people were almost going rogue a little bit related to like standards, and I had to bring it back, especially with like writing. And I’m like, whoa, whoa, like first grade? They?

Erica Denkenberger  45:44

Yes, they can’t write a paragraph, because look at what the standards say, you know, we kind of like had to bring it back to there. So yeah, so looking like this year, we looked at like the vertical alignment and thinking about like, so you’re in third grade, what do they even need to do in fourth grade. And that was like the conversation that we were having yesterday as well, like, what that place value thing is that they, I mean, they’re gonna see that again, in fourth grade there and see it again. And fifth grade, I know both of the first units in both of those grades are working on those. And like the fifth grade one is decimals, but place value after the decimal, you know, so like, all those really, really, really important skills come back.

Erica Denkenberger  46:21

And yeah, they just keep layering on top of each other. So

Chrissy Beltran  46:25

yeah, yeah, I think those are really good conversations that you’re having. And all of those conversations, as you’re looking at curriculum, as you’re looking at assessment and data, those things you can, you can pivot and twist them, turn them into individual coaching work. So that’s those are good, those are good conversations to have. And then you can say, I can work on this with you. And then you can present your menu and move towards an individual coaching cycle in that way. Everything that we do with teachers, all these interactions, it’s coaching, it’s supporting them, it’s growing them, it’s just growing them in different ways. And so then we can take that stuff that we do in a PLC setting a teen setting, and then move it into individual support, if that’s the door that we have open.

Erica Denkenberger  47:06

Alrighty, yeah, that sounds great. Sounds like, it sounds like I should take most of what I’m doing in PLC, and then kind of build on that. And, yeah, that’s what I’m really hearing. Like, when I can only hear that one voice, you know, like, sometimes they stopped me in the hall. And, and I can jump in quickly. But that’s what I’m really like, hearing a lot of this is what’s going on in my classroom and what went well, what didn’t go well. And we’re, you know, and then the whole because usually, once one of them says something that everybody’s like, Yeah, me too.

Chrissy Beltran  47:37

Yeah. Yeah, even what you’re talking about with PE thing, having sitting down with a teacher and looking at the calendar and saying, Okay, we need to find some extra time. And I will coach you, I will ask you the questions, I will help you do the thinking to figure out what we can do. We will look at your schedule and figure out how can we address these needs throughout different parts of the day, all that is coaching. It’s not modeling. It’s not co teaching, but it is changing the way a teacher does their work and helping them think differently. Yeah. Okay, great. All righty. Well, I hope you have some ideas that might work out for you as you move forward with your coaching cycles.

Erica Denkenberger  48:12

Yes, I do. I took lots of notes here. Okay, great. All right. Well, thank you so much. Thank you.

Chrissy Beltran  48:21

All right, Coach, I know that we started talking about PLCs and other kinds of coaching work there. But I think it’s important to think about how our support for schools, it’s not, we don’t only do one kind of thing, we support our teachers through a variety of strategies. And we can take those other strategies and turn them in to coaching cycles. So if you need some ideas about how to get teachers engaged in coaching cycles, you can grab that free download at buzzing with myspace.com/episode 169. And it’ll give you three different ways plus a couple of tools to help you get your teachers excited. Next month, I’m super excited, because we’ve just wrapped up our coaching cycles month in October, and in November, which I am calling Novem number isn’t a terrible name. We’re going to talk about how to use data meaningfully. So it’s kind of like a lovely segue that Erica gave me into how we’re going to use data and assessments. And that’s going to start with episode 170. It’s next week and we’re going to talk all month about using data meaningfully about formative assessments about common assessments. We’re going to really dig into what data and assessments look like at our schools and how we can do a great job with them. I also would remind you about that survey at buzzing with Miss b.com/survey where you can be entered to win a $25 gift card from amazon so be sure to fill that survey out and let me know what it is that you want to hear on the podcast next year. Happy coaching

Chrissy Beltran  49:51

Thank you for listening to buzzing with Miss B the coaching podcast what more coaching ideas check me out at buzzing with Ms. b.com and on Instagram at buzzing with

Chrissy Beltran  50:00

Miss B. If you love the show, share it with a coach who would love it too, or leave me a review on iTunes. It’s free and it helps others find this show. Happy coaching!