The Human Side of Coaching with Marianne Domico – Coaching Call, Ep. 142 Buzzing with Ms. B: The Coaching Podcast

Episode 142 The Human Side of Coaching with Marianne Domico – Coaching Call

buzzing with ms b 

Hey coach and welcome to Episode 142, the human side of coaching. This is a coaching call with Marianne Domico. Today you’re going to listen into this coaching call as I help this help this coach troubleshoot their communication with teachers, how they work through all of the human side of coaching, how they define their role, how they figure out how that role supports their work at different levels and digital teachers, PLCs and cold cold school PDS. It’s so much that’s packed into one episode. And so I’m so glad to share it with you. This is the last episode in this series that actually is 12 episodes long and it started back in February, at the very beginning of season four. We’ve talked about coaching, mindset, relationship building, resistance, communication, and so much more in this fantastic series. And I am so glad we decided to focus on the human side of coaching because so much came up about this. Today we are wrapping up wrapping up of this coaching call so we can apply some of this learning in coaching situations that are actually happening at schools. I know you’re gonna walk away with something valuable that you can try out tomorrow. And let’s welcome our coaching friend to join us today.So welcome Maryann to the podcast.

guest 

Thank you very much.

buzzing with ms b 

I’m so glad that you’re here to talk about this idea today. Before we get started looking at some challenges that you’re having, I would love to learn a little bit about you, and what your coaching role looks like.

guest 

Sure, my name is Maryanne D’Amico, and this is my 22nd year in education, but my first year as a reading coach, mostly at the high school level, teaching ELA and now heading over to what we call a reading coach or a literacy coach. And the biggest challenge is I made a brand new school. So I didn’t know any of these people, or maybe that’s a blessing,

buzzing with ms b 

too, because a little above for sure.

guest 

And just figuring out, so my primary role, I think, as defined by my administrator, is trying to support teachers that comes across from them as like, there’s a problem, can you help them fix it. And then in addition, I ended up picking up some roles for professional development that is coming from Admin as well of, hey, this is something we need to roll out to the whole school. So some of that comes across as like follow up and feels a little bit admin ish. And then some of that really is the the coaching aspect of where are the supports that I can give you to help you be successful in your classroom?

buzzing with ms b 

Yeah, that’s what you’re describing is absolutely the challenging role that many coaches have, where they’re asked to do some things that are that do feel a little bit add Mini, and then they’re asked to coach teachers and be supportive, and then teachers are looking at them going okay, but are you holding me accountable for this? Because it kind of feels like you’re holding me accountable for this.

guest 

100% 100%? And it’s hard to balance that and not feel like, like, when do I put my coaching hat on? And when is this my admin hat both between the admin and the conversation there? And between the teacher and the conversation there?

buzzing with ms b 

That’s a good question. I think that if we are taking off our coaching hat, then we are signaling that it makes it difficult for teachers to trust us as their coach, if that makes sense. But I do know that there are some responsibilities, even if you advocate, you know, for the role as a true coach, there are some responsibilities that you’re probably not going to get out of. That’s just the reality of working in schools, right, there’s not enough people to do all the work. And so I mean, obviously advocating for the position to be, you know, less ad money is a great thing to do. But dealing with the reality that you have will focus on that because I feel like personally, the advocacy part takes so much time and you’re dealing with a roll right now, you know that you’re in the middle of it right now, what do I do right now? So what are some of the kinds of things that you feel like you’re having to do that you feel like you have to put on an admin hat,

guest 

sometimes it’s the follow through of the PD. So when a PD is issued across the whole entire school, and I’m being the one asked it, to what it’s not implement, but the one to deliver that. So right now we’re in an acceleration model, and emphasizing the fact that we should be teaching ahead of where we are not remediating from behind. And so that’s been a huge push and a huge accountability for our teachers of like, Hey, are you doing this? Are you doing this? Are you doing this? But then at the same time, they need the tools of like, how do I do that? How do I make sure I’m previewing information, and not. And that’s where some of the breakdown happens. So for my first semester, there was a lot of tension. And going into a planning meeting, where they felt like it was me that was saying, you have to do this, and they really didn’t want to. But at the same time, you know, how do I live with Yes, this is what our direction is as a school. But I’m not here to catch you. I’m here to help support you. But it’s hard to navigate their feelings and my support.

buzzing with ms b 

I think framing it in your own brain that you sincerely say, Okay, this is the expectation. I’m here to help you get there. And even explaining that to teachers, verbatim, you know, tell them look, I know, this is a lot. I know, you’re being asked to do a lot. And I know this is a really difficult shift. This is the expectation that our school has. I’m here to help you reach that, and whatever, when solve all the issues that you’re having, we can work together to do those things. I’m here to work with you. I’m learning this too. And I’m gonna we’re gonna figure out how we can make it work for you.

guest 

Yeah, yeah, definitely think if how do you take that then back to your admin, who then sits down an admin meeting and says, Hey, so How is Ms. Smith doing on implementing that? How do you navigate that part?

buzzing with ms b 

Right. I think that that there’s A couple of pieces there one piece is having a conversation with admin and saying, you know, if I’m sharing too many details about what’s going on, teachers are going to struggle to trust me to help them. So when they’re having trouble, or they’re having a challenge, they may not come to me, because they’re afraid that I’m going to tell you and it’s going to make them look bad, regardless of whether your admin would respond to that information graciously, as far as Oh, misono hasn’t started. Right. So and so, you know, told me he never wanted to do this ever. And he had shut his door, when I walked down the hallway. You know, if they responding to even as a response to that information pretty nicely, it can still feel from the teacher perspective, that Oh, you’re gonna rat on me. So you can kind of make it clear with admin, okay, I can give you kind of an update on this is what we’ve worked on. This is what we are working on next. And I can even let you know, you know, grade level teams, this is a focus a grade level has right now or I guess your your high school level. So you’re looking at departments, right? It says, you know, in, in this specific class, you know, that’s taught by five teachers, or whatever. This is what these people are working on. Specifically, this is what this team is looking at. As far as individual teachers, you can say, you know, I would love if you would like to take a learning walk and you know, go see it yourself. That’d be great, because then you can see how it’s actually panning out in the classroom. And you can give me some thoughts on what direction we can do next. Right? I don’t know how comfortable you feel speaking to your admin in that way, because you may have to, I feel how you would say it, that would sound natural to you.

guest 

100%, and I can see that happening. I think admin wants me to be the person that does both. So to your point, I think that may be going back to clarify the roles of who you really want me to be? Yes. And that’s the hard part. Because I think there’s been very little definition around our roles, because we kind of just you have a reading coach now. Yes. And that makes it difficult.

buzzing with ms b 

Yeah. Yeah, it is, it’s a difficult spot to be in. And that is a really hard part about starting a new coaching role, or even just starting out with a new admin building that relationship is defining the roles clearly, how do we specify what information is okay to share, and what information I’m just going to keep, and continue building that relationship. And there are also things that you can say such as is the teacher maybe is not really responding. And the principal is continuing to ask, you could say things like, you know, I’m, I’m continuing to work on my relationship with that teacher, so that I can support them in the best way possible. So there are ways that you can say, in general, that maybe things are not, you know, where you would hope that they would be, but you’re going to get there, I believe we’re out there, you know, and if you come at it with that frame of mind, and using that language, sometimes principals will realize, oh, maybe, you know, maybe we I’m trying to get too much into the weeds here. And sometimes you may have to have that conversation still about, okay, I am concerned about if my teachers here that I am coming back and sharing every single piece of information, they’re not going to ask for help. And I need them to ask for help when they need it right now. Right? So do you boss you need them. So that’s why I’m here. So clarifying that role, actually have a free webinar about this. Defining your coaching role. It’s for literacy coach, or any coach can benefit from it. It’s buzzing with Ms. b.com slash webinar. And it talks a little bit about how to define what your role is and how to communicate it with your administration so that everybody’s on the same page, because that is a real issue. Yeah, cannot it’s hard to turn to teachers and say, Hey, I’m here to help you when they’re like, are you? Or are you here to tell my boss that I’m not doing my job? Because to teachers, it’s exclusive. That’s mutually exclusive. The two cannot be happening at the same time. Right? Right. The perception is you either to hear to help me or to hurt me.

guest 

Right. And at the same time, yeah, it is. It’s difficult, because I think it’s also just on a personal note, I think it’s difficult when you’re the only coach on the canvas. Yes, there’s nobody because it doesn’t feel like like, who am I bouncing things off of of like, hey, this happened today. And this teacher is freaking me out. And like legit freaking me out. Who do I tell? Because I don’t want to. I don’t want to get rid of that trust that’s being built there. But at the same time, I’m really scared for what’s happening with that teacher.

buzzing with ms b 

Yes, I completely can I know exactly how you feel. It’s it is very frustrating. Because if you don’t have somebody on kind of in that same role, who shares it and says, Oh, my gosh, I know what is going on in that room like this is not good. There are some things that you are going to have to share. If there’s like aggression. Is there stuff that you know that students are not in a safe learning environment? There are some things that you would have to Record, tell your admin of course, it can help to find a buddy in a different school. If you do have like a, a team across your district or whatever you call that.

guest 

We do. We do. And I would agree with you that that has been a lifeline. I think we probably need to have more regular meetings, because we don’t meet enough to learn from each other. Because we’re having similar problems. But we’re not coming together and going, Oh, my word. You had that problem, too. How did you deal with that? So that learning cohort needs to happen at that level as well. But yeah,

buzzing with ms b 

regularly, it’s somebody who’s in charge of your learning cohort that you can say, hey, we’re noticing the same things. Can we schedule like, once every two weeks? Let’s put it on the calendar. And if everybody can’t come fine, but at least if it’s on the calendar, yeah, you know, it’s easier to put my I’ve learned from one of my principles, it’s just put it on the calendar, it’s easier to take it off than it is to add it later

guest 

through it. So even if we just did zoom meetings like this, where we don’t have to go somewhere, we’re still on our campuses. But we can all just chime in on Hey, how’s your week going? And yes,

buzzing with ms b 

what have you done? Yeah, a simple structure to you know, what’s going on? Everybody gets to share, like in one minute, all the issues are having and then okay, this is our topics that we’re going to talk about this week. What are you doing in this area? What are you trying has anything work? What are your challenges? Share around it? Because like you said, if this isn’t new across all your schools, but taxes, okay, so then yes, some sort of building that framework? What does coaching mean to us? In this district? What does it look like, they’re also going to have to educate admin as to what that really is. And so if you’re like, trying to piece it together, as you go individually, you’re all going to build a different thing. And your admin is all going to come up with a different relationship with those coaches and a different placement for those coaches. Some I can tell you right now are being used as assistant principals. Oh, yeah, yeah. So and

guest 

even teachers who like one of them shared yesterday, they walked in and the teacher was like, can you take care of this kid in his cell phone? And she was like, I’m sure I’ll try to help you out. So it’s that impression that we’re the ones I like educational admins like the instructional admin? Yes, almost how it comes across

buzzing with ms b 

interests. Yeah, that makes sense. Like that is your domain instruction, but you’re an admin, not a coach. And that may, if they’ve never had coaches, they don’t know what you do. And that’s one of my my favorite things to say is, if you haven’t told them what your role is, they are figuring it out. But it is not what you want.

guest 

So how would you then because we weren’t given a framework of what our what our instructional coach should be. I am formulating it as I go. And I know what I would like it to be. But I would be interested, when you think about your role as a coach, and as coaches in general, what do you think should be the primary tenants of what you’re accomplishing?

buzzing with ms b 

That’s a great question. I would say that it’s mostly about coaching teachers, one on one and teams of teachers. And I think that PD is fine to include in the coaching role, I think it’s actually really important, because that’s how you’re, you’re growing your campus at a school level. Right? Right. But I do think that whenever it whenever PD does not meet teachers needs, then and it’s not and it’s framed, sometimes they give you the PD, and it’s not very good. And when the coach has to deliver it, that is a real challenge to balance that out. I do think that coaches should be PLC facilitators, because I think that we need to build the learning community. So coaches are about teacher learning and application to the classroom, where we’re supporting teachers and learning individually and applying things to the classroom through coaching cycles, we’re supporting teams of teachers through PLCs, which can be learning PLCs, data planning, you know, whatever, whatever that needs to look like an application to the classroom. And we’re supporting our whole school through professional development, right, or the whole department or whatever it is that you focus on, through professional development, in order to grow teachers at the campus level and to align practices and belief. But I believe that once we start getting into accountability, there are some things that a coach can do for accountability. That’s just like, Okay, next week, we’re all going to bring a sample of what our students produce when we try this activity. And that’s fine. I think that’s part of being on a team, we decided that yeah, that’s okay to ask of each other. But once we start holding people accountable for like, you’re doing this, you’re not doing this. That’s where we have a real problem. So to kind of address that, I think we talked to mentioned learning walks a little bit a little while ago, it might not be a bad thing to schedule regular learning walks with your administration, and you can even go with them. And you can say I’m going to listen to what you see. So that I’m going to hear from your perspective, what you see going on in classroom so that I can address it through my coaching. So that way you they visit classrooms looking for the specific focus this PD that you’ve been practicing. And then they say, okay, I can see that this is not happening here, this teacher I’m noticing is like three weeks behind in the curriculum, we’re falling, or whatever it is that you know, the issues that they see popping up, I see that this teacher has to intervene with all these students, because they their fault, they’re like, you know, way off track. And then what are the other kids doing, there’s no differentiation, or whatever they’re noticing. And then you’re recording all these things. And you can use it to say, okay, my PLC support can be about this, this and this, my coaching cycles, I can offer them up about three topics. That’s one way you can do it. You can say, okay, for PD, next time, I’m going to address these concerns that we’re seeing. And I’m also going to get feedback from teachers about it, so that I can help them solve the problems through learning.

guest 

So we kind of did that today. I really didn’t think about it as a learning walk until you mentioned it, we got a brand new assistant principal, who’s now over English and reading, which are my primary departments. And we did we went into three classrooms together today with her evaluation instrument, with my knowledge of what the teacher what I know that teachers are trying to do in their classroom. Yeah. And then having discussions about okay, well, this is what I saw and her asking questions of like, Yeah, but I saw this, and I’m not sure that that’s really connected to what’s happening in their learning. Okay, so that would be a great model of us working together on that side. I like that. And I need to, I need to put that in my pocket as not a one time thing, but a regular occurrence.

buzzing with ms b 

Yeah, yeah, if you can, again, get it on the calendar. And get it on the calendar once a month, once every six weeks, just so you get kind of like you can touch base with them say, Okay, this is what we see happening. This is your, what you’re seeing what you’re observing, and you’re giving me feedback. So I can use it to support teachers, in better ways.

guest 

Well, and vice versa, doesn’t that work the opposite way to to be able to go to teachers and say, Hey, this is what they observed, I want to help you get better on those evaluations. So let’s work on your questioning skills, or let’s work on the rigor of your content and see if we can get you up to those marks.

buzzing with ms b 

It can but I would, I wouldn’t use language of like, we have to be really careful whenever we share what admin say about teachers. Okay, that makes sense. Because the teacher immediately feels like oh my god, they’re sitting in a room talking about me, which obviously they are, we know this happens, like your work in a place people who are your principals to talk about how you do, but it is like, um, it can feel trying to think of a good word, it just attacking it can feel like, Oh, my God, how embarrassing, they can be ashamed. It can bring up a lot of those feelings. Sure. Even to self defensive. Yes, absolutely. And they feel like, well, you only came in for three minutes, you didn’t see this and that and whatever you don’t know. So sometimes I would withhold maybe if there’s like specific. If there are specific needs, that I know, the teacher is not going to really respond all that well to, because sometimes the specific need is really far more underlying than what they’re seeing at the surface, they really correlate below. I would sometimes withhold that information not to be not so they don’t know how they’re doing. But so we can say, Okay, how do you I can talk to the teacher and get feedback from them? How do you feel like that lesson went, tell me what happened during the lesson, what is an area that you saw, could use some growth, and we can work on that. And then you can also build in, you know, one thing that I noticed is we could actually work on some questioning strategies, I noticed that you noticed you were trying to do this. And that was a really good at a tribe, I really thought that was an interesting way to use that, maybe we can learn a little bit more about that. And you can kind of its partnership, you know, you take them you’re taking from you’re you’re bringing something yourself to the table if you’re really their partner, because partners don’t just do what one partner says all the time. So take from them what they feel like they need to work on and what they would like to grow in. And we also can say another thing I noticed is this, and this is something we can do. You know, so we can we can both bring things to the table, the teacher and the coach and a true partnership. But you have the frame of mind, you know what the principal saw? If a teacher is going to be penalized, like penalized for something, if it’s to that degree, you really have to consider your relationship with that teacher and you can decide, okay, the principal said question is so bad, she’s not even going to, like be renewed next year. You know, we cannot, you know, I mean, like, she’s like, she’s on a, you know, temporary contract. And if it’s that significant, you can you can decide, okay, I’m going to approach teacher and say, Hey, one of the needs that we noticed was questioning how are you feeling about your questioning and get their input on it and you can start out that way. It’s it’s that significant. It just really depends on your individual relationship with each teacher as to how you broach the subject of that need that you thought in your walks. Because so that was 100%.

guest 

So that would segue to I think something that’s just recently started to come on my radar that I’ve not been doing well. So it’s been a semester of building relationships, which I gave myself that to say at least first nine weeks. I don’t know any of y’all. So I’m not going to comment on how great or how not great I think you are. But that’s right. Again, when I took your little quiz, I’m a collaborator. And I can write and I say that, because I tend to want to insert my ideas into the PLC and say, This is what you should do, because this will be amazing. Because creativity is low and excitement is generally low. But then the execution doesn’t happen, because they’ve not really made it their own and said, Oh, this is going to be the best way to teach this. So how do you transition from that? I’ve I know you we’ve talked, you kind of know who I am here into? Okay, now let’s talk about these weaknesses. Is it? Like do you sit in a classroom and just write everything down and say, Okay, this is what I’m seeing? What do you want to work on? Like? Or is it more piecemeal? Does it all just depend on that? Or how well how’s that transition work from home this person? But now we’re actually going to start partnering together? Yeah,

buzzing with ms b 

I think so. First of all, you want to clearly define what your coaching role looks like to the teachers, so they know what that partnership will be like, okay, so you can tell them explicitly, these are the kinds of supports that I can provide. And you can do this in like small groups, or you can during a PD, you could share it. But I recommend smaller groups is usually better, because they’re more likely to listen to it. So during a PLC, or even one on one, you can have like a coffee with a coach or cookies with a coach or whatever. And I have some tools about how you can do that in my TPT. Store, if you’re interested, that I can send you the links about that. But basically, you’re introducing this is how I can be supportive. These are the different things that I can do to help you as a teacher, teaching is hard. I’m here to help. So right there, you can go into, okay, there are certain individuals who do like to try things, I’m going to start off, I’m not going to do a coaching cycle first with the person who doesn’t even make eye contact with me, during PLC, I’m not going to start, because then I’m going to set myself up for failure, I’m going to set the teacher up for failure, and then everybody else is going to know that I’m just going into the classrooms where I’m not wanted yet. And the idea is not that you’re never going to go in those classrooms, because you’re going to go but you’re going to start off with some people who would like to try some stuff. Okay, I’m sure you’ve got at least a few people that you can think of who do have some energy for things? And who whenever I hear something, they go, Oh, that sounds kind of neat. Tell me more about that. Or what does that look like? They are the ones that ask the questions, right? And so those people, you can start off and say, hey, I want to try to get coaching cycle started. And I’m feeling it out. I’m figuring it out as I go, would you work with me on a coaching cycle so that we can practice this? And you can get started with those people? Then use that relationship that they’ve already demonstrated some receptiveness? You know, use that to figure out what you want your coaching cycles to look like?

guest 

Got it? Then magic question there. You work with me in on a coaching cycle?

buzzing with ms b 

Yeah. And that’s just like the very first couple of people, you just want to try it out and see what it’s like. So you have like a framework, you can build a framework for what it looks like, get feedback from your colleagues that you’ve talked to in your meetings, you know, what have you done coaching cycles? What does that look like? How did you, you know, how did you structure it? And I also have coaching cycle resources, if you sure direct you to, but basically, you’re gonna say, Okay, I, we’re going to have a pre conference, we’re going to do some classroom work, and we’re going to have a post conference, what are you interested in working on, I’m trying to stay kind of within the realm of this specific, you know, PD area that we’re focusing on, is there something in that area that we that you would like to grow in, and we can do some work together to see how we can apply it in your classroom. So then you can go from there, once you have a couple of those under your belt, then you can start branching out, and hopefully those who’ve gone pretty well. And those people are like positive about the work you’ve done together. And they can maybe share during meetings during PD, you can say, Oh, we tried this out so and so would you talk a little bit about how that went. And that way people start to see you as a support person that can help them try things that work?

guest 

The site, so I’m required to go to their PLCs. So they have regularly con planning meetings by grade level. Would you does that role looks slightly different than what we’re talking about. As far as like, not, as I’m sitting with that team, how would you define that coaching role? If it doesn’t, and this is about with a cycle, the individual cycle, yes,

buzzing with ms b 

yeah, it’s kind of like what we said earlier about coaching through individual teachers through coaching, cycles, coaching, PLCs, coaching, right, right. It’s like tear. So you’re coaching individual teachers is the most differentiated, it’s the most personalized learning, right? That’s your coaching cycles, then your, your PLCs are like your small groups. Right? And then your whole class, that’s your PD. Got it? So then your P and

guest 

I think I’m good at the I have not yet really attempted to personalize to be honest. It’s man, the PLC? Well, Gary, because

buzzing with ms b 

you’re like, are you going to be you’re going to listen, like and be receptive here.

guest 

Takes the biggest relationship buy into? Yes. Because it has to be someone who trusts you enough that you’re going to sit down with them and not make them feel like they’re foolish, that we’re really partnering this. Yeah. And I also have teachers and total other topic, but teachers who are not self aware enough to even know how I can help you. Because they’re outside of teaching teachers first years. And I’m like, Okay, so where can I help you? And they’re like, I don’t think you can, it’s not

buzzing with ms b 

because they think they’re doing great, or because they think they’re doing terribly, a little bit of both summers.

guest 

And I got to lead some questioning with one where she finally admitted she was struggling with ninth grade writing. She was like, they can’t do it there. They just can’t, they just cannot do it. And they said, Well, you really do have to hold their hands. And I explained gradual release. Yes. And she said, I’ve never heard of that before. I’ve never had a teacher ever do that. And I was like, you probably have you did, but it’s okay. And she’s like, but I know how to write. I just have no idea how to teach them. And I was like, Yes, this is what we need to work on together. But they don’t have enough metacognition to even be like, Okay, this is the piece that I’m failing in. So does that. And that looks different, I think, than even what you were talking about with the go for the ones that want apart, right?

buzzing with ms b 

Totally different. Yeah. Right. So those teachers need to see teaching. They have not seen teaching. So would you start with modeling? I would start either with modeling or getting them into other people’s classrooms. Okay. Depending on the teacher and the reality of getting them into other people’s class. Right,

guest 

right.

buzzing with ms b 

I think that whenever teachers have not seen teaching, we’re asking them to do things that are just, it’s they’re like, I don’t even know what that looks like. What does that like? She said, I’ve never seen that. Probably you have, but how would you possibly know as a kid? Teaching looks easy. You don’t know what they’re doing behind the scenes?

guest 

Yes, I love literature. So of course, I can teach it.

buzzing with ms b 

Yes. And suddenly, there’s a book by Kelly Gallagher. It’s called Teaching adolescent writers. And he has a chapter about owed to the Grecian urn, and it talks about how whenever we model we model in front of students in LA, like live modeling, not this is the thing I wrote, look how great it is. Now you go, yes, it’s a really good book, teaching adolescent writers. I love her. That’s great. So So yeah, that’s, um, those teachers, they need to see what teaching can look like. So they can have a sense of what they would like to get better in, because they don’t have any frame of mind for that. So I think it’s really important to get them to see teaching in action, whether that’s a video that you share, whether that is you modeling, or whether they get to go see somebody else live. And so you might say, instead of like, well, what can I help you in? Because they don’t know, necessarily, you can say, well, I’d like to see. What would you like to see in action? You’re about to start this unit on? I don’t know writing an essay, why I’ve so and so’s working on that today? Would you like to go see them? Do it? Would you like me to come in and do a few lessons where you can kind of see and then you’re gonna walk so you’re gonna plan together so they get to see what what your plot for about what’s happening in that moment that you are showing them that it’s not like I just go up there and do it. Like I have a plan. I have a purpose for everything that I’m doing. And you’re going to think loud while you’re planning your own metacognition, you’re gonna demonstrate that you’re going to model the lesson and then afterwards, you can talk to them and say, Okay, this is what I saw happening. This is what I would do next. This is what I would change. One thing that I’m thinking about is this, you’re gonna model that reflective process because they haven’t seen it. And they don’t even know what it can look like. Yes.

guest 

Okay. That’s, I feel like that I could spend my whole life there. Yeah, absolutely. With those teachers, so then in a PLC where that teacher is sitting next to the Experience teacher and the mid year teacher, what do you see that coaching role looking like?

buzzing with ms b 

So in that case, you’re the facilitator, and you are there to help them work together. And sometimes that is the expert, the the veteran teacher who’s really good at something saying, Well, this is something that I do. Let me show you how I do it. And they do it right there. They model that lesson in front of their peers, their colleagues, they say, you can do that beforehand. You could say, Okay, we’re having this PLC, we’re going to start our, our personal narrative unit. And I would love Could you share? How do you get kids to brainstorm ideas for personal narrative and choose one? How do you do it? And then that teacher if they have, or if they’re great at that area, they bring their stuff? They say, Okay, this is what I do. And at first, you’re just gonna want to tell them? And you have to say, No, I want you to show us pretend were the kids, what does it look like? Because we want other teachers to see this as much as possible. So building like using those teachers, as your resident experts, I think that’s a great way to go about building a PLC, because then that new teacher knows, oh, I can look at that teacher and learn something from them and get something that I can use in my classroom. If the new teacher has tried something out, that’s work, they can share, too. This is not just like a years of experience thing. It’s like who has a great idea thing. And then if you have something great that you want to share, you could say, you know, one thing that I tried is this, but by then you’ve established that everybody is bringing ideas to the table. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, collaborative. Because a lot of PLCs are sit and get PLCs instead of let’s work together and figure this out PLC?

guest 

Well, and I think one of the things I noticed happening with the new teachers is they become so dependent on the veteran that they are not producing the veterans feel they’re waiting till you pass off your idea. What’s your lesson plan? How are you approaching this? Which is also not fostering them? As teachers? Right? Because then they’re still waiting? Oh, well, Dana didn’t send anything. So I don’t know what we’re

buzzing with ms b 

Yes. Yes.

guest  

And so again, that role, because now the veteran teacher is looking at me going, you need to help.

buzzing with ms b 

Right? I cannot be 100 respect or set responsible for this other person?

guest 

Yes, yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, at the individual level, it’s, I feel like it’s a time management problem, too. As a coach, like, how do I give them enough time? When they like, what skill Do you start on? Because like, if they can’t even lesson plan to go, Okay, this is what we’re teaching. This is how I’m going to break that down, right? How do you how do you coach that

buzzing with ms b 

all these things have to happen kind of at the same time, right? That’s the problem. So in your teachers who need you the most, you’re definitely going to want to plan alongside those teachers. And you’re going to want to model for them. Because that has to be kind of it has to, you have to do that in partnership for a while, because they’re not going to be ready to share IDs, if they’ve never seen teaching, if they are brand new. And they didn’t even go through like a program where they got to teaching. Because many of our teachers, especially right now are not even from education. And they have not, they’re not even certified necessarily, right, they’ve got to see it. So maybe those people, okay, you’re not certified, we’re going to build a special afterschool program with you in mind. And every once a week, I mean, it’s, it’s here to help you, we are going to help you because we know that you did not have the preparation for this. So we are going to give you the tools that you need that you’re going to be able to use immediately, we’ve got this unit coming up, I’m going to plan with you as a little team, we’re going to plan together, I’m going to leave the planning because I have the experience in this area. But I would love to hear your ideas as we go. And at first, we’re not going to have a lot of ideas. But over time, they may. And then you’re going to build plans together and then you’re going to model it and you’re going to record yourself and share that video with the other ones because you can’t be in all the classrooms at once. Right? Well, if you can share a video with other people, then they can see oh, this is what it looks like. So then during your next session, you plan that we say this is what we’re going to do this week. This is what you’re going to do in the classroom. Next week, you get back together you watch a video, this is how this lesson went? How did it go for you all? What questions did you have about it? Okay, let’s plan for the next week. That’s honestly what I would do. I would do the hand holding for a while if they have current background and education they’re going to need it is my opinion. They might not love that. But if they’re going to be a teacher, that’s what they need.

guest 

Well, and I don’t want them to quit at the end of the year.

buzzing with ms b 

Because they felt like I don’t know what I’m doing. Right.

guest 

Right. Right. And I didn’t feel supported. Okay, so how that all those roles then tie into being I think where I need to some other help is being the complaint department because that this is where I want to live. It’s totally where I want to live and it’s probably why I love the idea of coaching is like we can do this guys. I believe in you. We can do this Listen, if you’ll listen to me, I’ll take you there, I’ll make sure you know how to be successful. That’s my only goal for you. But the complaint department, both inter department, Lee, and even, even just the admin, and how do you as a coach manage that, because I think sometimes they need it. They need someone that’s just listening, but then not letting that take up. The time that the hand holding doesn’t turn into on your mom.

buzzing with ms b 

Right. Yeah. And, and, and also, let’s complain instead of doing something productive, right? Yes. So if it’s in like a group session, like during a PLC, and you have people coming in venting, right, it’s totally okay to say, I can see that you’re really upset about this? Would you like to take a minute. And then you can come back when you’re ready. And I will talk to you about it after the meeting whenever I’m free. Because I think that’s really important. You can say things like, you know what, you’re right. This is not right. And I’m gonna give everybody five, like three minutes to write down all the issues that they’re having right now. And then you can share it with me. Like, you can have it to me. You can also say things can plan an activity specifically to say, okay, what are the issues that you’re having? Right, right, right, right. I’m a firm believer in quick rights and free rights, they have a way of shifting your brain from one thing to the next. And to help you focus kind of on where you are, instead of having to dump all this stuff out on paper. So it’s not swimming in my brain anymore. doesn’t solve anything, but it does give you a moment to breathe from it. So they can write, write, write, and then let’s talk about from these issues. What can we solve out of these problems? What is something we can do something about? Because you’re right, there are so many problems right now. We cannot even fix them all. I’m here to help you figure out one what is one thing that we can possibly do something about? And then you’re constantly pulling that dialogue back to okay, what can we do? Well, let’s because of the parents that ended up okay, what can we do? Well, you know, that last administer, he did okay, what can we do? Because if you don’t have an action plan, there’s no point. We talked about it. And nobody really feels better after a certain point venting makes you angrier. I agree. Yeah, it’s science to show this actually, I read it somewhere. Venting is like a vent goes like this vent. Done. It doesn’t go like this. for like days. You know,

guest 

you become like the gas, Dawn’s mob, you know, going to the castle. Beating off of it. Yes. And it just becomes let’s storm because they’re big into

buzzing with ms b 

pitchfork. Yeah. 100%. Right. So then what can we do? Is there something that you want me to take back to admin? What is it? Is there something that I can do to support you in this? Let’s figure out what it is. We’ll help you we’ll we’ll making a plan for this week, make you feel better. We’ll reviewing your data. So you know that you don’t have as many areas to focus on as you thought and make you feel better? What can we do to help you get through this moment? Let’s take some action. Now. Not all people like that. I’m a big action person. If I come to you with a problem, I’m asking you to tell me give me an idea that I didn’t already have. Right? Not everybody is like that. So really do just like to feel. And I know I shouldn’t say that is such an annoyed Terrell Joan. But my, my husband is a little bit like that. I’m a problem solver. He’s a mentor. And, and so he I’ve had to learn sometimes he just doesn’t want me to tell him, we’ll just do this, you’re making this a really big problem. And it doesn’t have to be. But some problems that they’re having are huge and unsolvable. So I feel like we really have to help them think through Okay, two column chart, I can do something about this, I can’t do anything about this, I’m just gonna have to let that ride for a little while while I focus on the things that I can do something about. And I actually have an activity in my SEL tools for coaches. It’s like tools that coaches can use with teachers, that teachers think about what can I actually control? And what can I not control? Because there are things that we are so upset about? And there’s nothing we can do. And we just spend so much energy on it. And it doesn’t fix anything.

guest 

No, even if it’s even if it’s my colleague that I don’t like, yeah, right. Like, like, you can’t fix it. No, it is I’m coaching them just like I’m coaching you. We’re all trying to get better, what it’s like an obsessive amount of time. I feel like sometimes it’s the best in the comparison game.

buzzing with ms b 

People get stuck, big time. I saw that as a teacher. And then whenever I left, I see people that I talked with 15 years ago, some of them are still complaining about the same people. It’s unbelievable.

guest 

Is it a culture that we’re breeding?

buzzing with ms b 

It absolutely is part of the culture, I think from inequitable expectations from me, and I don’t know if you see that or not. Okay, yeah, it’s sometimes some teachers are held accountable for certain things or the admin will put out a blanket statement of this is it spected some people do it, some people don’t. And nothing happens. And the people who do it feel real frustrated at the people who don’t. And the people who don’t say he doesn’t check for it anyway, what am I going to do it for? So 100% 100%, I have a real problem with this, it creates a culture that makes it hard to build relationships, because people are like, you’re one of them. You’re not holding people, why don’t you hold him accountable? Suddenly, the accountability becomes your job, because the teachers are like, You should hold them accountable. Right? Yes. So that may be another conversation to have with your admin and say, you know, when one thing I’m noticing is that, like, I’m not saying I should be the one who’s accountable, but are holding people accountable for this. But one of the issues that teachers seem to be having is that whenever they’re doing something they’ve been asked to do the ones who don’t do it, nothing seems to happen. And the principal may look at you and say, well, that’s where you come in. And that’s where you have to have that really clearly defined role and say, I can help them work on it. But I think that they weren’t they, you know, might be helpful. If you had a conversation, say, Hey, this is important. We asked you to,

guest 

and to be close here to help you with that. But you need to know that we think this is important. Yeah, it’s not just Marianne coming down and offering you her services. Yes,

buzzing with ms b 

I have asked her to help you in these areas, because I believe it will make our school better. I am also asking you individually teacher, that you to do it because this is the expectation for our school. So everyone has to be if they don’t want it, sometimes they don’t want to bite the bullet and say it. It’s they’re the ones holding people accountable. They have to put on their big boy pants and come out and say it. Yes. Because it puts you in a rough spot, because then you’re the one in the middle. And admin is silence.

guest 

or absent or absent. They’re just not there. So it seems like Marianne is the only one really saying yes, what

buzzing with ms b 

we got to do, you can ask them to be present. So you know, I’ve been working on this. And it would I would really appreciate if you can be present during PD and kind of share why it is that you thought we should bring this to our school.

guest 

Well, and sometimes that’s good. And sometimes that’s bad. Because my first ad that I did was within the first two weeks of school, which was a lot. But we had some issues with how my admins personality comes across, which is not my personality at all, but because we were doing the PD together.

buzzing with ms b 

Oh, yeah. I wouldn’t do the PD together. I wouldn’t I would add them to. Yeah, yeah. But you don’t know it first, right? Because you’re still learning people, then you’re sitting there in the meeting going? Well, this was a huge mistake. Exactly. I wouldn’t say can you remind them that there’s a reason that you’ve wanted us to do this. And this is the reason I don’t think admin always needs to be present during PLCs. Because it can make it hard for people to share. You know, I don’t think they should be involved in coaching cycles, really, at all. But sometimes PD is this is a school wide initiative, and it’s nothing you can choose or not choose to do. I think that it needs to be clear that it’s coming from them.

guest 

Yeah. 100%. So how do you do Sorry, that’s my alarm. How do you get to the point? Does your coaching get to a point where I’ve done the steps? I’ve got the relationships, I’m working with the people that want the help? Where is there ever a point where you just go into an observation cycle? And that becomes, hey, we’re doing this and I need you to? Is there ever an error finding coaching? Because I’m seeing both sides of that, like do like, some coaches are like, Yes, I go in and I write down the whole observation. And then I say, Okay, what do you want to work on? Because this is what I saw happening in your classroom? Where Where does that spectrum fall? Of like, hey, you need help. And here’s the proof that you need help. Versus you want to help? Right?

buzzing with ms b 

I think that if we look at it as like, error finding or like looking for weaknesses, then that puts us in a frame of mind. And teachers feel it. That is not as supportive, if that makes punitive. Yeah, exactly. So now I do think I totally agree. You go into classrooms, you write down everything you see, and then you look at it, I wouldn’t give it to the teacher. I would never give the teachers everything I saw. I wouldn’t give it to the teacher. Okay, I do. I’ve given teachers written feedback. Absolutely. But it’s after I’ve thought about it, and what do I want to focus on? And I write it carefully for them to see it because I’m delivering a specific message. But I wouldn’t ever just, oh, this is all the stuff I saw. I think that’s overwhelming. And I feel like that because the teacher can look at that and say, Wow, you were really here to pick apart everything I said, even if that wasn’t your intention, it can feel that way. So I think as the coach, you look at it, and you can hunt can talk with the teacher and choose a focus from there. And you can go in with a focus in mind and say, you know, I’ve noticed um, One area that we can work on might be student engagement. Can you tell me a little bit about your student engagement plan? Or like, what do you do? Like, what kind of strategies do you usually use? Because I know I only saw a small piece of your lesson. So I’m just wondering, is there other things that you do during the day? And you can get their feedback on it and start working on that? And yeah, absolutely. It’s not always just open invitation. I personally don’t think it is. And I don’t think it’s there are some schools where coaches only work with teachers who want to work with them, and I feel like then you’re missing, probably to their population. So yeah, you’re you’re going to start moving into classrooms and say, Hey, I am here to work with you. What can we work on? Let’s get started. And it’s it comes with sort of a confidence and a, like a positive problem solving attitude that we are here to figure something out, what is the challenge that you’re having, because I’m going to help you work on it. You can also listen for problems teachers are having during PLC. So if they’re complaining, complaining, complaining, you can say, You know what, I’m hearing a lot of complaints about kids not wanting to do stuff, right? They don’t want to do this, they don’t want to do that. And that’s why they can’t edit. And that’s why they can’t whatever, I would love to work with you on figuring out some strategies that we could use that might improve student engagement.

guest 

When can find do you get in those goals? Like me? Yeah, this session that I just want to I just want to the Florida literacy conference, all kinds of coaches, they’re obviously very different approaches for it. And some are like saying, Okay, we’re gonna make a SMART goal, as in, it’s going to be achievable, reflective, I’m going to meet with you again, in three weeks, we’re going to measure that and see Are you accomplishing are not? Is that personality dependent? Where you’re like, hey, what works for you? How do you once you’ve identified it, and you’ve gone through it? Is there an accountability that you come back to?

buzzing with ms b 

Well, it is accountability in that we are working together to achieve something? So then let’s see if we did it. I mean, I think there’s a way that we frame things that sounds like, Hey, we’re working on this. What can we do? Like we come at it kind of like, picture yourself like a Labrador. I’m here to help you, buddy. We can do it. And you have to bring this energy. Even if you don’t get it back. You know what I mean? Yes, so. So we I personally don’t use SMART goals. I have used them in my own coaching works sometimes. But I don’t use them with teachers, I think it can be overwhelming. Like, you have to spend all your time on the goal process. And you’re like, oh, like literally want to do the work anymore. So with teachers, I just write a simple statement, what is it we’re trying to accomplish here? And we say, Okay, well, we would like to integrate at least one engagement strategy for students per lesson.

guest 

Like just keeping that and keeps it simple and measurable. Still, though,

buzzing with ms b 

yeah. Are you doing it or not? Right? Yeah, it did? Did you try out an engagement strategy? And then we can evaluate the effectiveness of that? How did it go? Should we try something different? Do we not really like that? When do we just need to come back to it more, so kids get more comfortable with it? And then they learn how to do it, you can evaluate and have those discussions. Because the coaching cycle, you’re doing the work together, right? It’s not about um, let’s set a goal. Okay, you work on that I’ll be back in a week. It’s about okay, let’s set a goal. Let’s learn a little bit about it together, let’s figure out what it can look like. Do you want me to model that? Do you want to co teach together? Do you want me to just observe as you try it out people in different points in their careers or wherever they’re all gonna feel differently about that. So you can give them the choice model co teach, observe? And then the teacher can say, Well, I would like to, I’d like to see you do it. Because I just can’t picture what it would look like, Okay, I’ll model that for you perfect. And then we’ll have the debriefing conversation, we can kind of evaluate, see what we thought. And then I can either model something different, or maybe we can co teach the next lesson. If you thought that was a good one, and you want to try out part of it. Or if you feel ready, you can, you can do it and all observe. But it’s a very collaborative process, because you’re trying to figure out what is going to support this teacher in growing. And when we’re thinking about growth, we’re not looking for what’s wrong with them. We’re looking for where we can grow, which might sound like the same thing, but it comes from a different place in your heart. And that’s it, if we’re being very directive, and if we’re saying, you know, okay, I’ll come back and check on you and see if you did it, then that’s no longer coaching. Because the coaching part is like the gradual release model, right? The coaching data is the working together part and the providing the feedback in the moment and the, you know, like supporting teachers and learning and acquiring something new baseball coaches don’t go, you need to change your swing, you’re lifting up, you need to come straight across. I’ll check back on you in a week. You know, they actually like, guide them through, they show them videos, they position their hands, they use specific tools to help them do that. And that’s exactly what we do. We figure out what is it going to help this teacher to do this thing that they’re trying to grow in?

guest 

Right now? Well, I think the emphasis in my thinking of what you’re saying is that I really need to be thinking about the Wii in my language. Oh, nice, and not necessarily even the you, like, what are you doing? I need to be like, What can we do and even just that shift in how we talk about it may create the team Enos that you’re talking about, we’re either winning as a team on the basketball court, or we’re losing as a team. So how, how each player does, their skills may be different on the court. But as a coach, I’m here to help accentuate what your best skills are, and make you all around the best player.

buzzing with ms b 

Yes, I love that language. You’re using we language rather than you language. This is not about what you are not doing. It’s what we can do next together. I love that. I got chills. I love it. Beautiful. Yeah, that’s a great way to think about it.

guest 

And I think that will change their thought about me being in their room.

buzzing with ms b 

Yes, yes. Because it changes the way the direction you’re coming from. It starts with our mindset of what we’re there to do.

guest 

Right? And I think up to this point, when I’ve come in the room, well, first it’s been observation, or else with teachers that do like me being in the room, they automatically almost switch into a co teach mode, which I love. Because we’re both listening to each other and going, Oh, I see what you’re doing. If I asked this question, watch what this kid will do. And they’re then going, oh, did you hear how Mr. Miko asked that. That’s what we all need to be doing, too. I love that. But that doesn’t happen with every teacher, because every teacher doesn’t. Isn’t that aware. But I can see if I took them to the steps of team. Let’s do this together, I want to come watch you so that we can see if we pick the right strategy. So we can see if we need to change what our idea was and make it better. So it’s not your idea. It’s Hey, we worked on this together. I think that lowers the stakes.

buzzing with ms b 

Yes, we’re both trying to figure this out. This is not your responsibility. And I’m here to check and see if you did it, we are going to work together to figure this out. Yeah. Have you the Diane Sweeney book, student centered coaching is really good. Because it talks a lot about what is what is happening with the kids. What is the effect on the student? Not so much? What are you doing teacher? So kind of what you’re saying about? Did we pick the right strategy for this group of kids? Or do we need to make some adjustments. That’s what she gets that. So really good book, students that are coaching, and then their students center coaching the moves, which is like about, like the specific strategies you can use to coach that way. And then there’s a new one, and I got it not long ago, student centered coaching, and I can’t remember what it’s called. But it’s basically for like all levels of it’s like what your school needs to look like in order to support that. So that might be a really good read, as you’re thinking about defining your role. And administrators as part of this team, like what does this look like from their level as well?

guest 

Interesting. Florida is starting a coaching endorsement. Oh, as well through USF. So it’ll be like a whole program, you can go through me great. I know.

buzzing with ms b 

It’ll help give you a good foundation. Because it’s like when you’re trying to build the, the the plane while you’re flying it. It’s not fun, but it’s not. But if you feel like okay, I know what’s important, like you said the tenets, then you can you can have a plan, and you can try it out and change it if you need to. And that makes a huge difference. Okay, so any last thoughts about how you what you kind of are going to apply over maybe the next couple of weeks?

guest 

No, I think well, yes. I think the big takeaways, I think I obviously need to like, decompress everything that I wrote down here, too, because it was a lot. But I think I think my admin, and I need to sit down and really just clarify roles, set appointments for those learning walks, because especially with the new AP, I think that would be an amazing team there as well, of how me and admin can work together to guarantee that we see what’s happening with our teachers. But then, on that level, I think even understanding the individual to PLC to school wide level, and in my brain organizing things that way of Who do I need to spend more individual time with that really wants to help at the PLC level. What am I really doing to say, as a team, what are we doing? And then the school wide level? Do they know who I am and how that’s supposed to work? But I think the biggest takeaway is, is the sitting down and saying, What can we figure out and making that an action list? Not a complaint list?

buzzing with ms b 

Yes. I love that. That’s such a great takeaway. I’m so happy. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank

guest 

you so much for the time bouncing off of one another is I think for some of my best ideas come out. So I appreciate you spending that time.

buzzing with ms b 

Yeah, no problem. And, and that’s what your teachers probably feel too. And they just have to be comfortable with feeling vulnerable. And hopefully, as you develop that we relationship and that partnership, they’ll get to that point. That’s awesome. Yeah, thanks. Well, we covered a lot of topics in that coaching call. And I think it brought to the forefront how having a defined coaching role and your administrators understanding that knowing your place in the school and having that certain mindset about how you approach your coaching work is so essential. And if we don’t have that in place, if we don’t have a defined role, and the mindset in place, all of the other stuff is going to feel awkward, we’re not going to really know how to approach it. And we’re going to feel like, how do we how do we even broach the subject? And how do I fit in here. So if you are feeling like Marianne has been feeling like she’s not sure how to approach certain things, that she doesn’t know how to deliver certain messages, and that she doesn’t feel like she has a good handle on what her role is. Grab that buzzing with Miss b.com slash webinar, the free webinar that you can grab, that will help you define your coaching role, share it with your admin and share it with your teachers too. So check that out, for sure it’s free. And it’s it’s not too long, and it’s gonna really give you some tools to get started. Next week, I am starting a new series. So this is the last episode in our series about the human side of coaching. So it kind of makes sense that we closed it with an episode about literally everything coach. So next week, we’re starting a new series called your coaching impact. We’re looking at how to track your coaching work during our next episode, and I’m so excited about this. A coach from the field is going to share some technology tips using Google Google Sheets for tracking the truth is we’re tracking her work and I think you’re gonna love it. It’s so good. It’s free. I mean, who doesn’t love free? So join me next week for episode 143. And until then, happy coaching