Analyzing Behavior Data with Teachers with Navigating Behavior Change, Ep. 123 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Analyzing Behavior Data with Teachers with Navigating Behavior Change, Ep. 123 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:00]:

Are you new to coaching? Starting out as a coach can be incredibly overwhelming, especially when you aren’t given much direction from your administration. That’s why I created the new coaches playbook. It includes a roadmap to help you start building your coaching foundation and a guide to seven podcast episodes in order that will give you the steps and ideas you need to build relationships, define your role, communicate with your admin, and make a plan to start coaching. Coach, what’s your instructional coaching personality type? Have you ever wondered what superpowers make you a really strong coach and what areas you can strengthen with just a little bit of direction? Well, now you can find out. I what’s your instructional coaching personality type quiz to help you answer this very question. Just head to buzzing with missb.com/quizwithacapitalq to take the two minute quiz and get your coaching personality type sent right to your inbox. Even better, you’ll get a playlist of podcast episodes handpicked just for you to help you hone your superpowers and strengthen your areas of growth. I’m so excited to share this quiz with you, so don’t wait to take it. Go to buzzingwithmissb.com/quiz with a capital Q and learn so much about your coaching style. You’re listening to Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching podcast, where we believe that every teacher deserves a coach, and every coach does too. I’m Krissy Beltran, an instructional coach, resource creator, and coffee enthusiast, and I’m your host. Stay tuned for practical tips and honest coaching talk that will help you coach with confidence. Hey, coaches, and welcome to episode one twenty three. Today, we are continuing our dialogue about coaching cycles, but we’re gonna focus in on something really important. Last last week, we talked a little bit about using data to drive our coaching cycles, and today, we’re going to address something that every coach knows. Learning doesn’t happen when classroom management is not in place. So one way we can support teachers and students is by working on management through coaching cycles. But if we think about last week’s episode, how we use data to actually drive coaching cycle work, how can we take that information and use that to work on management like we work on instruction? Helping teachers see the areas of growth and responding to those areas purposefully can help us use coaching cycles effectively for management support too. And, really, if we can get management in place, everything else is so much easier and everyone’s lives are so much better. Teachers are not struggling as much to go to work. Kids enjoy going to school, and they’re gonna get the most out of their day. So that’s why I invited some very special guests today, Danielle and Amanda of navigating behavior change, and they’re gonna chat with us about this topic. We’re gonna talk about some best practices in management, what’s creating the behavior challenges we’re seeing right now, which are

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:12]:

especially significant, and how we can conduct coaching cycles to focus on behavior growth. I am so excited to welcome Amanda Wilson from Navigating Behavior Change to the podcast today. Thank you so much for being here.

Amanda Wilson [00:03:29]:

Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:31]:

Yeah. I’m so glad you’re here because this topic has been a hot button issue for coaches. This episode is coming out in November, and it is or October. Sorry. October. And it has been an ongoing sort of need for teachers and coaches for, like, the past two years. You know? This this idea of behavior support, how we can help teachers impact behavior that they see in their classrooms, why we’re seeing the behaviors that we’re seeing, why they’re so extreme. And so I’m really glad that we’re gonna get, hopefully, some answers today to help some coaches. I know it’s gonna be helpful.

Amanda Wilson [00:04:05]:

It’s it’s our topic of, it’s my topic of interest and passion, so I’m happy to to share my input.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:11]:

Oh, perfect. So can you go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners a little bit? You could talk a little bit about that, your topic of interest, but, also about who you are, how you ended up here, you know, what kinds of work you do right now.

Amanda Wilson [00:04:22]:

Sure. So, yes, my name is Amanda Wilson, and, I will be starting, I think, my eighteenth year in education this year. I’m a school psychologist and a board certified behavior analyst. And as a military YFA have had, although it’s felt at times like, you know, not the greatest, situation to constantly move, but I’ve had the opportunity to work in a lot of different districts in my career, from very large districts to medium sized to very small, and to notice the themes and the differences of needs and student skills across those different settings. But as a school psych and a behavior analyst, behavior is my passion. I I started out just in a school psych role, but working with students with autism and I always felt like, oh, it’s really great at figuring out, you know, is this autism or is it, you know, emotional disturbance events or is it a cognitive impairment? But I never really knew what to do next. And so I went back to school because I didn’t like that. I didn’t know what to do next. And that’s when I got my BCBA. And, I’ve spent the last twelve years or so working in the area of behavior. I’ve had a lot of experiences with programmatic developments, and being a part of how different programs, support students with behavioral needs. And I’ve moved away from that area of autism as my primary focus to the big behaviors, students with emotional disturbances. And I’ve had a lot of experience with students with FASD as well. And so Danielle and I, that’s my business partner with navigating behavior change. And we, have our business where we really work to disseminate that information and support teachers and educators in learning about behavior and how to best teach behavior skills, social skills, and to be preventative in how we approach behavior rather than reactive because we’re not firefighters and we don’t want to be and prevent is where it’s at. And so, that’s our role within, navigating behavior change. But I also do still work, in the school settings as well.

Chrissy Beltran [00:06:36]:

That is perfect. I love what you’re saying about being proactive and preventative instead of waiting for the behaviors and then having to undo a lot once they’re already in place. It’s so much harder to do that. So my audience is made up mostly of instructional coaches. And even though they are usually asked to focus on instruction, we know that learning doesn’t happen when behavior isn’t in place. Kids cannot learn whenever they’re not in a good place at school. So and I was thinking about this idea about how so much has changed in the way that we think about student behavior. So I wanted to ask how we should be thinking about classroom management and behavior as a concept. And the reason is because, like, when I was in college, this was a while ago, we were taught about constructivism. That was, like, the big thing at the time was pushing constructivism. The introduction of constructivism was terrible, but, like, the way that it was taught to us was terrible. But, you know, that was what they were teaching. And then whenever I started teaching, my mentor teacher bought me the book The First Days of School by Harry and Rosemary Wong, and and that was, like, the preferred recommendation at the time. So I feel like now we have grown so much in our understanding about the way kids learn best and the way that they things they can control, things they can’t, and what kinds of supports they need. So when we talk about management behavior, what are some of the basic understandings that we really need to know?

Amanda Wilson [00:07:57]:

Well so constructivism is really, you know, learning from experiences. And as a behavior analyst, you know, we are all about operant learning, which is learned behavior. And we, as humans, we we learn from our environment. We learn from the consequences in our environment, and behaviors are elicited by what happens, in the environment. And so, you know, it really all ties together. But I think the core thing to keep in mind is that behavior serves a purpose. It meets a need. And so it’s when we engage in a behavior, whether that’s, you know, tapping our desk or scratching a note, an itch on our nose, or eloping from a classroom, it’s meeting a need for us. And that’s to get something or to get away from something. And I think keeping that in mind is really, really key because you know, while behaviors may seem irrational or odd in certain contexts or situations, if we if we don’t take it personal and if we just kinda go back to that that premise that, you know, we learn from our environment and behave Your meets a need, it serves a purpose for us. We’re going to be in a more proactive mindset to begin with, right? Because the more we take behaviors personally in the classroom, the less likely we are to proactively and positively intervene. Right? We’re gonna start blaming the child, blaming the parents, blaming the sit situation. And we’re gonna get in a blame game rather than, how can I teach a new skill? What can I do differently to set the environment up so that I don’t see this behavior and the student doesn’t have a need to use it, and so on and so forth? So I think really thinking about behavior from that just that premise that it serves a purpose, it meets a need. And and reframe I mean, our thinking around that is one of the most important things.

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:52]:

That’s really helpful. Yeah. I think I feel like as a parent, for example, you know, I mentioned to you earlier that I have a 16 old and I also have a four year old. And I have had to spend so much time thinking about the way that I react to situations and what it is that’s causing me to react this way and how I was raised and what elements of that I think were okay and what elements of that I would I I don’t want my kids to to be raised with. And it’s so much of of the way that we think about behavior is, is is unlearning and being aware of and unlearning so many of our own behaviors and reactions to things. So I really like the way that you say that about not taking things personally. I know as a teacher, I did that more than I should have, and it was just like my like, what I naturally did when I didn’t have anyone teaching me anything different.

Amanda Wilson [00:10:40]:

And Danielle and I often talk about the need to respond versus react because a reaction is emotional. A response is planned. And I know too as a parent myself, there are certain times where over the years I’ve been sucked into reacting a certain way. And in my head, I’m thinking, why am I doing this? I know better. Right. You this isn’t helpful, but that emotionality takes takes control. Right? And until I planned a new response, like, actually thought it through and planned when this happens next time, I’m I’m going to do a, b, or c, not x y z. I really struggle, like a lot of people, to respond differently because that emotion takes over and that reaction that we have a learning history for, engaging them is what we we tend to to utilize. And so, yeah, that reacting versus responding, we wanna respond. It’s ideally more proactive and preventative, in nature than that emotional reaction tends to be.

Chrissy Beltran [00:11:44]:

That makes so much sense. So if we were to ask teachers right now what some of their biggest challenges are this year, it’s usually behavior. That’s what we’re hearing across the board from teachers, coaches, all grade levels.

Amanda Wilson [00:11:55]:

Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:11:55]:

What is happening that’s creating these really challenging behaviors in the classroom right now?

Amanda Wilson [00:12:01]:

You know, I don’t know exactly what is different, but across the country, we’re hearing the same thing. Post COVID behaviors are significantly more intense, more frequent, and it’s classroom management is a bigger challenge for teachers than it was in a past. Again, I don’t know the exact reason, but my suspicions would be that, you know, especially for a lot of our younger kids whose first introductions to school were zoom, you know, we’re online. We’ve missed a lot of those opportunities for that pre correction and for those building of structures and supports and safety, within the school setting. We also had a lot of years where that response effort to participate in school was pretty darn low. Right? They didn’t have to do nearly as much or sustain that effort to task and attending as they do now that they’re back in the classroom. And so a lot of our students are fighting that. And I see that in my own children too, that they want that easy back. Right? They got through second grade just fine online. Right? In their minds. Right. Where we’re like, oh, no, this wasn’t a second grade year. But then I think too, there’s been this push for schools are back and students are back in session and we’re back to holding to grade and, you know, state expectations for instruction and our students just aren’t there. And I think there’s a big gap between where third graders in the past event and third graders are now. And so I think there’s that pressure on teachers. And, you know, partly, maybe in some cases it’s, you know, from the state or the administration, but also just in themselves that, like, with their third grader, they should be able Mhmm. To do this. But they’ve had a lot of lost instructional time. And so I think there’s a lot of mismatch between the curriculum and where the students are and where they’ve been, and we’re seeing a lot of behaviors. Again, they meet a purpose, right, to get or get away from something. And so we’re seeing a lot more behavior as a result.

Chrissy Beltran [00:14:04]:

Yeah. That makes a lot that that, that gap between what they’re expected to do and able to do creates so much frustration, and they’re gonna try to avoid that or act out because they feel embarrassed or frustrated with the way that they’re doing it. So, yeah, that’s that makes a lot of sense. I also wonder how much drama kids went through that we’re just acting like didn’t happen. You know? I mean, a lot of kids lost family members, had family members I mean, they they they didn’t see for extended periods of time. They didn’t have a, quote, normal life. Like, I know we shut down for a long time. We had a NICU baby. I was pregnant. We did not see people. My four year old did not hang out with other kids for a long time because that wasn’t something we could safely risk. And, and it was it was hard. And so and how many kids I mean, I I read some study the other day about how many children were orphaned throughout this time. It’s a shocking number. I don’t remember. It was a lot more than I would have expected. So it’s it’s truly terrible that they’ve gone through so many things, and then it was like, we’re back to school. Phew. That’s over. And it’s not Like, they’re still dealing with ramifications. I mean, it’s still rampant. We still you know, COVID is still everywhere. I I don’t know, obviously, what what it’s gonna be in October. But, at the time we’re recording this, it is still it’s in lots of places, and it’s impacting a lot of people. And so I feel like school has out of desperation to get back to some sense of normalcy and just out of relief of, oh, at least we’re back at school. At least, you know, we can do our normal stuff. We’ve just shoved under the rug all the stuff these kids have been through and acted like that’s well, that’s over. But their children, even adults, it’s not over.

Amanda Wilson [00:15:37]:

But for

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:37]:

children, especially, they don’t know how to express.

Amanda Wilson [00:15:41]:

Right. They’re there. They’re back. And, you know, like, let’s move on. But, yeah, so many of them face food insecurities while while they were home or perhaps they were living in a a home with domestic violence or physical abuse, and they had no like, they didn’t have that reprieve of going to school each day. You know? And so that cumulative trauma absolutely, I think, plays a part too for many of our students.

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:04]:

That’s true. Yeah. Financial instability. And parents who, and maybe it’s not like abuse, but just the stress that parents are under, that stress level didn’t always create the best home environment, you know, in so many cases. So, yeah, I I feel like that’s a huge issue that we’ve seen. And right now, financial, you know, issues are huge. The cost of everything is, like, one and a half times of what it usually is. And so that’s another level of stress that parents are under, and kids are still are struggling to go to school through all of this. So I just feel like it’s so many factors. It’s like a perfect storm in each little classroom of all the children who’ve been through so much and are still going through so much. And then we’re like, you’re back at school. Let’s go. You know? And it’s not not to show that that’s the nature of the the school industry. You know? That’s the way it’s begun.

Amanda Wilson [00:16:53]:

Absolutely.

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:55]:

So coaches who attempt to work on coaching cycles with teachers will include, many times observation and feedback as part of their coaching cycles. Like, they’ll have a pre conference at the beginning, then they’ll do some classroom work, which could be observations. It could also be, you know, modeling or co teaching. And then they will have a debrief or a closing conversation where they provide some feedback and talk about next steps. You talked a little bit whenever we’re emailing about some topics we could talk about, and I’ve seen this on your Instagram as well, about, ABC data collection. Because I think that’s a tool that coaches could use with teachers during that observation time, and it would really give them some specific things to talk about during this closing dialogue so they could set some next steps together.

Amanda Wilson [00:17:37]:

Absolutely. And the thing I would love about ABC data collection, that’s, you know, antecedent behavior consequence. And when I talked before about how, applied behavior analysis is really about those learned operant behaviors, that three term contingency of antecedent behavior consequence, that’s what we’re referring to. So the antecedent in the environment elicits the behavior. And then the consequence, whether it pays off or is a cost, is what increases or decreases the likelihood of that behavior being utilized again in the future by the student or the adults, because it works. You know, we all engage in, you know, behaviors in that three term contingency. So where that could be key for coaches is looking at, sometimes being that outside eye. You know, if I don’t know if, you know, I’ve been in consultant positions, and sometimes it’s where I’ve been asked to come in because someone else is recognize there’s a need, or teachers have self requested consultation. Right? And, obviously, how those two play out, you know, can be very different, versus, you know, wanting the feedback and to grow versus, you know, it being, you know, being voluntary

Chrissy Beltran [00:18:44]:

upon you. Yes. Right?

Amanda Wilson [00:18:47]:

And so sometime times that outsider coming in and observing can be really helpful and looking at what’s at play because we’re so caught up in the situation that we miss those antecedents. We miss that our response is what is actually likely maintaining it. And when I say that, like, so sometimes students will engage in very kind of provocative behaviors, to really get a big reaction. Right. And what they’ll get is like three minutes of direct one on one scolding. Right? And we think, you know, potentially, oh, well, I’m I’m telling him that that’s not appropriate and I’m mad and he knows that. But the student might be thinking this is predictable. It’s prolonged. It’s high quality. Yes. Right. And they’re getting a payoff off where we might think it’s a cost, a punishment, but it’s really a payoff. And so sometimes that coach or consultant coming in can really look at those and be like, I think something else is going on here. Right? It’s not decreasing, it’s actually increasing. Or are you aware that you’re doing this? Likewise, kinda looking at those antecedent analysis of or those interaction analyses. I mean, so, like, it’s not what you said, but it’s how you said it. Right? Or how many times are we giving an instruction or a demand versus neutral feedback versus praise and kinda looking at those and seeing what kind of ABCs follow that as well. And I think that can be really key too because, Danielle and I have gone in and done observations where, you know, there’s 72 demands and zero occurrences of praise and, you know, a thirty minute period. Well, yeah. Of course, they don’t like school. Right? They’re just getting bossed around.

Chrissy Beltran [00:20:31]:

Yeah.

Amanda Wilson [00:20:32]:

Have no choice, have no say. There’s no positives. And so looking at that as well can be really, really beneficial, I think, because it’s easy. Just like we talked about reacting and responding, it’s easy to just kinda go about our day and react. And it’s easy to miss the opportunities to praise and to give the positives because we got other kids to see and things to get ready for the next lesson. We’ve got a million things on our plate as educators. And sometimes it takes that that other person kind of observing those situations and looking at those antecedents and consequences in relation to those behaviors to give a little insight into what may be maintaining those behaviors and what might be eliciting those behaviors.

Chrissy Beltran [00:21:16]:

So if you’re recording this, you just do, like, a three column chart, and then you have the annotated okay. Behavior of the consequence, and you just, like, record it from.

Amanda Wilson [00:21:24]:

And a lot of times when I’m taking my data, yeah, it doesn’t need to be on a, you know, it could be on a sticky note. I’ll just do a b c across. And sometimes what I put in the c, is a, because it’s the next antecedent, right, for the next behavior that’s happening. Right? Because sometimes our response then elicits another behavior that might be less than desirable. And so then you can kinda look at that and look at, am I helping or hurting? Oops. I’m hurting. You know? I’m not making the situation any better, by how I’m responding. But, yes, you know, I think a lot of people are, like, overwhelmed by the idea of data collection, but a whiteboard, a sticky

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:06]:

Mhmm.

Amanda Wilson [00:22:06]:

Notes, a piece of paper with ABC scratched across it, you know, or if you you really wanna make it easy, pre make one where you just check the what happened. Right? So you’re not having even right, You know, you’re just checking boxes.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:21]:

Okay. But what kinds of things would you would you include in those boxes?

Amanda Wilson [00:22:24]:

So antecedents are things that happen in the environment. And those with the things like instruction given or, told no, denied request, conflict with peer, you know, maybe a peer called them a name or something, things like that. They’re not things the student does. The behaviors would be the things that the student does. Or if you’re taking data on the teacher, you know, it would be the antecedents might be something like student called out. Teacher behaviors could be, like, ignored, or, you know, gave student two minutes of direct scolding. And then the consequences would be, you know, that what was that payoff for that cost? And it’s what happened immediately after. So it’s not like, oh, they got sent to the office twenty minutes later, or they had to miss their recess later that day. It’s what happened right afterwards. You know? So, and that’s the hard part, I think, for a lot of people to think about it. But it’s that immediate response because we have a tendency to want to kinda think about those big punishments as, you know, what will increase, you know, or decrease those behaviors that those but it’s what actually happens right afterwards that is often far more powerful in meeting that need than in just laid payoff or delayed consequence. Does that make sense?

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:40]:

Yeah. So, like, if, like, if if the student behavior is, that they argue with the teacher. Like, the teacher says no. Student argues and says, but I want to. Right? And then the consequence would be could be potentially what? Like, what is an example of that?

Amanda Wilson [00:23:54]:

So if the the teacher says no and denies a request, then the student argues. If the teacher engages in that Mhmm. Right, then that payoff is they’re gaining some attention. Right? So teacher engaged, you know, for one on one attention. Or it could be that the teacher walked away. Right? And so the student is, you know, got away from the proximity of the adult. Right? Or it could be that the teacher says, okay. Fine. You don’t have to do it. Well, they got out of the work. Right? Mhmm. So it’s more that immediate, payoff that makes that that difference in whether you’re gonna likely to see that behavior again versus missing recess later.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:32]:

Or Interesting. Yeah.

Amanda Wilson [00:24:33]:

Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:34]:

I mean, I’m picturing in classrooms that are that sometimes there’s this weird dynamic that you’re like, oh my gosh. Like, the other children are in on it now. You see classrooms where then the other kids will start to say, no. It’s because this and you did this, you said that. And then it’s, like, really scary. I’m like, I’ve seen rooms where you’re like, oh my gosh. This has gotten very badly out of hand because the other kids, they will

Amanda Wilson [00:24:55]:

not be engaged. Things messaged real fast.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:58]:

Yeah. They that’s the consequences that now they’re all, like, on a they’re like a team now, and they’re, like, all fighting for this child’s right to do what they asked to do or something, you know. And that’s

Amanda Wilson [00:25:08]:

as

Chrissy Beltran [00:25:08]:

an adult to me, that’s terrifying. Because I’m like, how did this get to this point? You know? That’s a good nightmare to me. But there are some classrooms that function that way.

Amanda Wilson [00:25:19]:

Right. There are. And so the the benefit of looking at the ABCs of situations like that is that you can then identify what you can do on the front end.

Chrissy Beltran [00:25:27]:

Yeah. As

Amanda Wilson [00:25:27]:

far as those antecedents and teaching skills and teaching alternatives, so that you’re not then dealing with that chaos of that situation. Mhmm. Because that’s That’s chaotic and that’s real hard. Like, it’s hard to come back from that without it happening again. Right. But if you consider, okay, what are what are the consistent triggers for that behavior and the situation happening? What can I do differently in the environment? What can I pre correct? What can I teach? What can I do to, ensure they understand expectations? Mhmm. And so on and so forth so that you’re being preventative, to keep that from happening. Yeah. It’s not ideal.

Chrissy Beltran [00:26:07]:

I love that. Like, you can look for patterns and you can look like, make you know, together, you can brainstorm and and come up with some possibilities. And and I like the way you differentiated there. Like, you can you can explicitly teach certain things. You can set up certain, like, rituals and routines. You can, you know, change the environment, the culprit. If you find the root cause, you can address it in lots of different ways. It’s not always just about what are you gonna say in that moment that’s different.

Amanda Wilson [00:26:33]:

Right. Or if it’s a student who, you know, is always arguing, well, I wanna do this or that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:26:37]:

Well, then you can use a a

Amanda Wilson [00:26:39]:

great prevent strategy, like instructional choice Mhmm. Ahead of time. Right? So that you’re not even having to you’re just preventatively providing those choices. Hey. It’s time for reading. Do you wanna sit here or there? Do you wanna read this or that? You know, whatever it may be. Their options you’re okay with, but you’re giving them that that bit of control or say and more likely to see less of that behavior.

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:00]:

So you’re starting to get at something that I’m very curious about because the challenge of being an instructional coach is that well, we don’t always have the language to talk about behavior because you figure out a system that works for you, and then you go into other classrooms and none of the things that were in place in your classroom are necessarily in place in those rooms. So the things that you were gonna that you could possibly try are not necessarily gonna work because it’s a different room, it’s a different teacher, different dynamic. Everything is different. I mean, I was in one classroom where the teacher had I mean, even on a most basic level, she had set up her her projector and her, like, her, document camera, face it where she had to face the front of the room to write on it. So all the kids were behind her.

Amanda Wilson [00:27:44]:

Right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:44]:

Very, like, tangible example. Obviously, there’s lots of, you know, subtle things in that. But even just that one thing, I was like, oh, this is bad. This is not a good plan. Right. You know, it just it was the most obvious thing in the world. I was like, you could slip it. You you look that you can see the children. You don’t have to see you know what you’re writing. You’re writing it on the paper. You could you but you have to see the children. And so I’m like, oh. And we obviously, I said it in a much different way than that. But, but it was it’s like everything is so different that you walk into your rooms these rooms and you’re like, how do I what do I say that’s gonna make an impact here? What can I give them if they’re not sure where to start? Because many times teachers are not sure where to start. Even whether they’re asking for help or not, they don’t know what to do.

Amanda Wilson [00:28:23]:

Right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:24]:

So what are some basic, like, tier one strategies that would that are generally effective that that coaches can recommend teachers or model in classrooms that would actually support the behavior regardless of how different their rooms function?

Amanda Wilson [00:28:37]:

I think, this is, like, our big, big passion area. Because for years, Danielle and I have been in situations where we are working with tier three students and we are writing tier three plans. But guess what? We’re writing into those plans. The missing in tier one strategies. And so this is something that we’ve just witnessed time and time again as the missing link. And so there are so many great tier one strategies that are low cost and high efficacy, big bang for your buck. So things like instructional choice, behavior specific praise, pre correction, just looking at environmental supports, and you know, like the layout of the room, active supervision, right? It’s not just a body, like there’s a process to active supervision, so that you are scanning and attending and reinforcing, you know, the desired behaviors and prompting other behaviors or skills as needed. And then, you know, like, just making sure those are in place. Those are some good core ones that are easy, low cost, high efficacy, and doing them well, doing them right. And I think you brought up a really good point too that sometimes the teachers don’t know where to start. And I’m sure you’ve been in the situation where you walk in as the consultant or the coach, and you’re like, holy

Chrissy Beltran [00:29:58]:

Yeah.

Amanda Wilson [00:29:59]:

Molly. There’s, like, 433 things that need to happen differently in this classroom. Right? But we can’t do them all at once. We gotta start with one, but I need the teachers buy in on what that one is going to be. Right? And so oftentimes, you might think or I I’ve thought in the past, this is the priority, but I can’t get the buy in there. And so so I have to go with something else where I can’t get that buy in. And sometimes it’s a matter, I think, of finding, finding that that intervention or that change that is the simplest that will also give a big outcome to get them on board for further support and and and really kinda help shift their mindset that this isn’t that hard. We can do this. We can do it together, and I’ll guide you. And we’re going to move towards, you know, increasing these outcomes for our students, and we’re gonna do that through our tier one strategies. Mhmm. I think a lot of times teachers want to jump to, you know, bigger interventions or people will recommend bigger interventions. But if those missing tier ones aren’t in place, we can do more harm than good. We’re also going to likely burn out the teacher. We might actually implement interventions that aren’t necessary. And backing it up and looking at those core, you know, environmental and classroom supports that really should be in place is where I always try to start Mhmm. With those teams.

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:23]:

Yes. For sure. And that’s that’s exactly what it is. Teachers will often focus on individual students that they’re seeing that are not really doing what they’re being asked or they’re not following directions or whatever. But there’s often a pattern across the room of other issues that are constantly happening, and then those kids just happen to be maybe more triggering to the teacher. But there are there’s it’s not like those are just the only cases that they’re seeing. There’s usually often things could be done differently across the board.

Amanda Wilson [00:31:51]:

And I think too, a lot of times we’ll hear, well, I do that. I do that. I do that. I use behavior specific phrase, but then you do that interaction analysis and you see, well, much you’re not or, yeah, I use instructional choice, but they’re using it response when the behavior happens versus preventatively or they’re missing steps to using, you know, after student responding, you know, accurately and appropriately or using it, you know, not using it enough. And so a lot of times that can just be the pushback. They’re like, I’m doing that. Well, let’s look at let’s make sure. Let’s look at a breakdown of all those steps and let’s see if you’re missing any, you know, because why would we wanna go to something more if, like, let’s just check this first. And so that’s an area. It’s you that are a way that you can kind of get that into look closely at what they say they’re doing to see if there’s any missing steps because that that impacts the fidelity of the implementation. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:41]:

Yeah. I love that that having the data to reference is so important. And without it, I don’t think the conversation can be as meaningful because it is easy to say I do that or I do this or I tried that and it doesn’t work. And that way you can go back to that and say this is what’s actually happening, and let’s figure out what we can do and what we’re actually

Amanda Wilson [00:32:59]:

Right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:59]:

Real quick question that I I was thinking of as you were you were explaining some of the tier one, strategies. When what are your thoughts on, like, certain programs like, Boys Town or things that explicitly like, you’re supposed to explicitly introduce social skills and, like, you teach them explicitly the kids practice. I mean, it’s pretty rigid, and there’s some other issues that I have with it. But the part that I did like about Boys Town was that the the social skills are taught explicitly, and the kids practice, and then you have language to come back to when they are not doing the thing. You can go back to what you taught them. That’s what I liked about it, but I what are your thoughts on that?

Amanda Wilson [00:33:37]:

I’m not familiar with

Chrissy Beltran [00:33:39]:

Okay.

Amanda Wilson [00:33:40]:

Mhmm. I’m not familiar with boys time specifically, but, I’ve I am familiar with, like, second steps, and, skill streaming, for example, and that SEL curriculum. And I do I think there’s one there’s a great need for SEL instruct Action for our students, and I think the more explicit, the better. And that’s from a behavior analyst’s viewpoint in that, you know, I’m sure you’ve heard teachers say to you, well, he he can tell me what he should do, but he’s not doing it. Right? Or he did it yesterday, but he didn’t do it today. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:34:18]:

Yes. Even if he wants to.

Amanda Wilson [00:34:20]:

Referring to those behavior, those social skills, you know, resolving conflicts and whatever. And I think the more explicit and the more we practice those skills, the more likely they are to generalize. Because when I hear a teacher say that to me, what I hear is they haven’t generalized the skill across people or settings or time. Mhmm. And we haven’t practiced it enough. And I think we have a tendency to, want to just talk at and tell them what they need to do, but not necessarily take that same direct instruction approach that we do to reading and math and writing. And we need to do the same thing when it comes to to behavior and social skills Yeah. Because our students aren’t learning that at home. They aren’t learning that in the community, and it’s confounded by the COVID situation and the isolation, and all the traumas. But we need to be just as explicit. And this is actually something Danielle and I we frequently teach on this topic, of how do you explicitly teach behavior and social skills? How do you teach them so that the student is able to use them across people’s settings and time? And how do you. Break those skills down just like you do the steps of, you know, teaching meeting, you don’t teach comprehension until they can decode and you don’t work on decoding until they have letter sounds and letter identification. There’s so many sequential steps. There’s that scope and sequence that they have to utilize. And really, the same thing should be true for for behavior and social skills. And unfortunately, there aren’t a whole lot. Of evidence based curriculums out there and even the ones that do exist, they’re great for, like, that tier one. But when you have those students that need more intensive, they aren’t quite explicit enough even for them. And so then you have to really collaborate and consult with someone who has more of a skill set in how to do that. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:36:05]:

Yeah. I think that’s true that even kids who do maybe learn social skills at home, they may not be the ones that the school values. You know, culturally, there are so many differences in the way that we say, oh, this is the way we greet someone. This is the way that we talk to adults. This is the way that we interact with peers That looks different in different households. And then they go to school and school is like, this is how we do it. You know? And it’s kinda like you should know this. And then after they’ve been in school for several years, teachers are like, oh, they should already know how to do that. Like, you just if they knew how to do it, they’d probably do it because their life would be a lot easier that way. They would Right. Have to get through their day without losing it, without having a meltdown. They would enjoy that probably, and they would like to be able to participate on the fun stuff that you’re doing. Just teach them the skills they don’t have with Gil.

Amanda Wilson [00:36:50]:

Right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:36:53]:

Exactly. That’s the kind of thing that I have a lot with teachers, especially those in upper elementary. You know, and, you know, that’s mostly who I worked with, was elementary teachers and, you know, whenever I was on a campus. And I’ve also had to talk with middle school teachers about it. But those the elementary teachers, once the kids are in third, fourth, fifth grade, they expect that kids already know what some of the basics are. And even classroom, like, classroom things differ. And so what your rules are may look very different than anybody else’s. So

Amanda Wilson [00:37:19]:

Exactly. And if it’s a school too that, you know, is high trauma or low SES Mhmm. There’s gonna be a greater need for that to be modeled and practiced and reinforced over time. Mhmm. And, you know, one and dones don’t work. Just like you don’t teach them the word, you know, you know, those those sight words and have them memorize it right away. So

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:39]:

Yeah. They need practice, and they need time, and they need to come back to that same thing. This is how we do it. Let’s practice again today. The year that I did that that I started doing that, it just it was, like, so helpful to my kids, and I’m so glad that I did because it was a rough year. They they needed a lot, and it was that was so helpful to place front loading all those at like, throughout the year, making sure that we took a little bit of time every day to practice something because they needed a constant practice. And I felt like it they just they weren’t getting I had to build in the time. I had to find the time because it was going to save me time later, obviously. And it’s also gonna help them so much in the long run, just having the basic skills and help me just to have a language, like you mentioned earlier, to have a language to say in the different situations. That’s what I needed the most. What do I say in this moment that’s actually gonna help them come back to the thing that we had practiced together? That’s gonna remind them of what they’re supposed to do in this moment because I’m I just wanna react and get really frustrated and and to say, just do what I asked you to do, you know, but that’s not gonna help any it’s not gonna work. It’s just gonna be awful.

Amanda Wilson [00:38:42]:

Right? Exactly right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:38:46]:

Calm down spaces. It’s something I wanna ask you about because they are they are frequently found in classrooms right now. And I was wondering if you could a little bit about those spaces and maybe what we could put in them and how they could be in

Amanda Wilson [00:38:57]:

benefit kids. How can they be used? So the best way for them to be used is, like, proact Mhmm. Actively. And so, really, it’s about teaching the students how to use them. So when do they go? What do they do when they’re there? How long do they stay there? What does it look like and sound like when they transition back to the classroom or the their desk area, when they’re done there and really explicitly teaching and practicing all of that. Because if it comes down to they’re kind of starting to escalate or they are escalated and you’re like, go to the calm down area. Area. Well, they’re probably not going to, and they’re not going to know what to do there, and it’s not gonna be useful. It’s going to become something frustrating that they don’t want any part of. And so then you’ll see the kids really dig in their heels in that they don’t wanna go. So it really comes down to that proactive t Sheen of what where do they go? What do they do for how long? And then the expectations upon the return, teaching those, whether it be breathing techniques, whether it be, you know, to engage in, you know, coloring Sudoku, like just putting those parameters on that, you know, because some kids need something to interrupt their thoughts and those internal thoughts. They have others need just to kinda have quiet, but there should be some limitations on it because you don’t want to have the students only wanting to be in that area. Right? So it’s kind of that balancing act of, you know, setting those expectations but giving them what they need. But teach it ahead of time. Practice ahead of time. And then take note of their precursor behaviors, those early signs that something is wrong, and that’s your point of intervention. Don’t wait until they’re they’re flipping desks and screaming and cursing at you. But when they put their head down on their desk or they scrunched their fists and their their eyebrows and, you know, like, something is coming, that’s your time to prompt. That’s your time to remind them, hey. This is available to you. Right? The same would be true if, you know, your your break is a walk versus a calm down space. Whatever you’re utilizing it, it you want your point of intervention to be those earliest signs that something is amiss and you want to pre teach and practice those expectations because what they have muscle memory for is flipping their desks and screaming. And you need to build new muscle memory for that new response of going to that area or taking a walk or whatever it may be. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:22]:

Okay. Great.

Amanda Wilson [00:41:23]:

When they lose that rationality, they fall back on what they know Yes. And get them to replace that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:29]:

Yeah. So I’m thinking about some of the recommendations that you’re making, and and I’m I’m I’m envisioning speaking with with teachers. And some teachers are excited to try something new because they can see that something’s not working. But like we mentioned, behavior management is so personal, and so much of it comes from, like, our beliefs about, like, people and children and how they grow and how they learn. Mhmm.

Amanda Wilson [00:41:50]:

What

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:50]:

are some ways or tips that you have for coaches to have a dialogue about trying something different behavior management without just offending the teacher and and shutting them down right from the beginning?

Amanda Wilson [00:42:01]:

It it I feel like it’s consultation is such an art form. Would you agree? Yes. It’s an art form. Right? Because, again, I may walk in and think, oh my gosh. This is awful. And, like, how do they even have a teaching license? You know? I’ve had that thought. Or, wow, this person is just so new and so overwhelmed, and they probably don’t know where to start. But it’s that art form of, like, trying to get that buy in. I always go back to the rationale on the buy in. Where can I get that? And I can remember a teacher that I consulted with many years ago when I was a new consultant, and I remember having to wake him up for consultation.

Chrissy Beltran [00:42:39]:

For me, he was

Amanda Wilson [00:42:40]:

in his classroom, asleep in his rocking chair during his prep period when he had told me he would do things like tell me we’d schedule an email back and forth and schedule a consultation. I’d show up and the principal would be like, he’s on a field trip and he knew that. Like, he would do anything he could to avoid. Right? And he was so difficult to engage in consultation, and he needed a lot of supports.

Chrissy Beltran [00:43:03]:

Yeah.

Amanda Wilson [00:43:03]:

And his classroom was a hot mess. But I had to just find that little area where he did want help. And even though I didn’t think it was my priority or even a priority at all, supporting him in some way. I know that Danielle would frequently go in and say, just what can I help you with? Can I give you a break for for fifteen minutes? Can I make copies for you? Do you need some water? Like and just trying to work on that rapport and that relationship and essentially establishing ourselves as someone reinforcing that they they find value in being around. And so sometimes we’ve had to go far as far as just how can I help, but then finding those little footholds and really building up and working towards, because some teachers are far more defensive than others, especially the ones who’ve been told they need the consultation versus those who have volunteered for it? And in selling that buy in, once you do sell that rationale, here’s how it’ll benefit you. Here’s how it’ll make your. Life easier. Here’s how it’s going to benefit your students. And again, start small, pick one student to intervene with or to make a change with, map out some different responses for them and say what, let’s go through these. You pick which one you want to try. And I often find myself I know the the listeners can’t see me when I’m tipping my hands like they’re on a scale. I always say, what do you wanna deal with? Do you wanna deal with the behaviors that are interrupting interrupting and disruptive? You can’t teach anyways, or do you wanna take a little time work on this so you can get to a lot more instruction? And I often go back to that scale in my my discussions with teachers. About what where do you wanna put your energy? You’re you’re you’re using your energy. You’re putting it somewhere. Mhmm. But where can we put it? How can we use it so that it’s you’re working smarter, not harder. Mhmm. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran [00:44:58]:

That’s great. That’s a great answer. How can a coach like, let’s say we’ve got some buy in, but sometimes you work with a teacher and then you that you think that they’re getting it, and they’re doing things together and you’re trying to something out that’s different and new, and then you leave and it all goes back to the way that it was. So how can a coach help a teacher implement a new behavior strategy in a way that actually sticks?

Amanda Wilson [00:45:22]:

That I think is where behavior skills training comes in. K. And this is an evidence based, instructional methodology, and it is so easy. And it’s really you provide instruction, you model it, you practice it, and you give feedback, and you do that as much as you need. Mhmm. And I think that’s often just like we will tell the kids what they need to do different. Sometimes as consultants, we’ll tell the staff what they need to do different, but we don’t actually model it. We don’t problem solve it with it. We don’t practice it, and we don’t give the feedback that we need to. Because sometimes the feedback is the hard part that makes us feel uncomfortable, so we avoid it ourselves. Mhmm. The avoid, you know, avoid giving it. But if we provide that instruction, maybe we write the steps out. Maybe we provide them verbally, but we need to definitely model, practice, and give feedback. Those are often missing. We’ll give instructions, we’ll model, but the practice of feedback, especially, I think are often less left off. But if we can get to that, we’re more likely to see that sustained change, in the the staff behavior Mhmm. If we use the behavior skills training.

Chrissy Beltran [00:46:26]:

Yeah. I love that because that can align with using kind of a gradual release model in coaching cycles. If you, you know, if you’re modeling, then you’re co teaching,

Amanda Wilson [00:46:33]:

and

Chrissy Beltran [00:46:33]:

then you’re observing, you’re providing feedback over time. That’s the same that’s the similar process.

Amanda Wilson [00:46:38]:

Right. Because it’s kind of the see one, do one, you know, teach one. But just really focusing on that practice and the feedback, and recognizing too what is and isn’t in a particular teacher’s wheelhouse. So if they’re really not comfortable with something more practice, more feedback, more modeling, versus, you know, someone who it that that is in a wheelhouse, he might be able to do a little bit less.

Chrissy Beltran [00:47:03]:

That makes sense. Yeah. So thank you so much for everything that you have shared today, and I just want you to be able to share where people can find you online so they can learn more from you, whether that’s, a site or your social media or or even if they can contact you in person if you’re in your area. I don’t know. Do you travel for your consulting? Mhmm.

Amanda Wilson [00:47:21]:

Yeah. Actually, Danielle and I will be in West Virginia next week. So, we do do some traveling. We do a lot of professional development virtually for school districts and, educational associations. And they can find us on Instagram at navigating behavior change or online at navigatingbehaviorchange.com. And we do have a lot of blogs and resources. We actually just posted a brand new free webinar on addressing work refusal in the classroom. Kind of some tier one strategies, three steps to take. Before you jump to the big intervention, what can you do just, you know, as a core intervention to decrease that academic work refusal? And we have a membership site too as well where we provide mentoring and support and resources to educators. And again, I had a great time talking with you. So thank you so much for having me here today. I appreciate it.

Chrissy Beltran [00:48:19]:

Well, thank you. I love that. I hope hope some people hit you up and maybe you can even do some work with their schools because we need it right now. Schools are suffering. So They are. Alright. Thanks.

Amanda Wilson [00:48:33]:

Thank you.

Chrissy Beltran [00:48:34]:

That was some great information from Amanda. I’m so glad that she was able to join us today because I’m sure you’re walking away with some great tips that you can use with teachers, a really great approach for data collection that you can use during your coaching cycles, and the importance of modeling in in the classroom, working alongside the teacher to practice. I feel like co teaching is a great place to practice, and you can also practice during your pre conferences. And then giving them that observational feedback so we can keep, perpetuating and building that that learning cycle for them. I mean, coaching cycles are a great way to implement the learning that we talked about today. In episode 78 of this podcast, you can learn about model classrooms, why you need one, and what to do with the one what to do with it when you get one. And that could be helpful in building some different behavior management strategies. Sometimes it’s hard for teachers to envision what it looks like, but if you have a classroom, you can say, hey. We’ve been working on providing choice as a proactive measure. Then they can go visit that classroom or watch a little recording of it and get that idea about how to use it in their own classroom. In episode 80, I share about getting in the door with a defined role, and that’s a coaching call. It’s a great way to you know, having your having your role really defined and having a coaching menu, showing teachers that one of the things that you can do is provide behavior support is a good way to get in those classrooms, especially right now because teachers want the help. And in episode 79, I talk about video coaching with Corey Camp of Sydney. Video coaching is a great tool that you can use to do some of this work. If a teacher is struggling to see what the issue is, then you can actually have them record themselves, and they can envision it easier because they see it right in front of them. They could do their own ABC data collection on their own teaching and how impactful would that be. So check out episode 79 for that information. I actually have a free download for you as well, and I’m super excited to share it. This is a behavior management strategy that I used whenever I worked with teachers in their classroom. And it’s a coaching man a classroom management for coaches document. It includes details on how to implement a really simple behave simple behavior plan when you’re coaching in a classroom. So it’s something you could build a coaching cycle around where you model it, you co teach around it, and then you observe them. And, they actually can watch you do that in the classroom, and then you watch them implement it and give them a feedback. So I really recommend trying

Chrissy Beltran [00:50:58]:

it out, especially if you’re working with classrooms that you cannot seem to figure out what to do to support them. I have an episode later in this season coming out about how I use this program, but you can grab the download and it’s a really great start if you wanna try it out. That will be at buzzymovementsb.com/episode12three, episode one twenty three and the capital e. Next week, in episode 124, we’re gonna chat with Doctor. Jane Kesey about differentiating coaching cycles. We’ll look at how personality trait influences influence how teachers learn and think. And then we’ll come up with some ways to respond to different kinds of teachers. So definitely, you’ll wanna listen to that episode. It’s got a lot of good stuff in it. And until then, happy cooking. Thank you for listening to Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching podcast. Want more coaching ideas? Check me out at buzzingwithmissb.com and on Instagram at buzzing with miss b. If you love the show, share it with a coach who would love it too, or leave me a review on iTunes. It’s free, and it helps others find this show. Happy

Amanda Wilson [00:52:12]:

Happy coaching.