Differentiating Coaching Cycles with Dr. Jane Kise, Ep. 124 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Differentiating Coaching Cycles with Dr. Jane Kise, Ep. 124 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:01]:

Are you new to coaching? Starting out as a coach can be incredibly overwhelming, especially when you aren’t given much direction from your administration. That’s why I created the new coaches playbook. It includes a roadmap to help you start building your coaching foundation and a guide to seven podcast episodes in order that will give you the steps and ideas you need to build relationships, define your role, communicate with your admin, and make a plan to start coaching. Coach, what’s your instructional coaching personality type? Have you ever wondered what superpowers make you a really strong coach and what areas you can strengthen with just a little bit of direction?

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:44]:

Well, now you can find out. I created the what’s your instructional coaching personality type quiz to help you answer this very question. Just head to with missb.com/quizwitha capital qto take the two minute quiz and get your coaching personality type sent right to your inbox. Even better, you’ll get a playlist of podcast episodes handpicked just for you to help you hone your superpowers and strengthen your areas of growth. I’m so excited to share this quiz with you, so don’t wait to take it. Go to buzzywithmisty.com/quizwithacapitalq and learn so much about your coaching style.

Chrissy Beltran [00:01:28]:

You’re listening to Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching coaching podcast, where we believe that every teacher deserves a coach, and every coach does too. I’m Krissy Beltran, an instructional coach, resource creator, and coffee enthusiast, and I’m your host. Stay tuned for practical tips and honest coaching talk that will help you coach with confidence. Confidence. Hey, coach. Welcome to episode one twenty four of Buzzing with Miss B, the coaching podcast. This month, we are talking all about coaching cycles. Episode one twenty two, two weeks ago, was when we started our monthly theme of coaching cycles, and we talk started by looking at data and how we can use it to drive our coaching work with teachers. Last week in episode one twenty three, we talked about using behavior data and analyzing that with teachers to really facilitate the coaching work that you do in the classroom. Today, I’m chatting with doctor Jane Kesey. She’s an author, a trainer, and a coach who works with schools to facilitate team development and leadership coaching. I actually spoke with Jane about a year ago first as the first time I ever actually talked to her whenever she was a special guest for the members in the coffee and coaching membership. We did a special interview with her as one of the, videos for the membership. I was actually in the hospital with our youngest baby, and now that baby is a year and a half old. But at the time, we were trying to help the baby cook a little longer before she was born, so we did a virtual interview for our members. I enjoyed talking with doctor Kizzi so much that I knew I wanted to invite her onto the podcast, and so we were finally able to do that today. That coffee and coaching membership has actually closed since then due to commitments that both Nicole s Turner and I had, But you can access all of those resources at coffeeandcoachingmembership.com. You can grab that resource. It’s got one download with all of the different video files in it and all the handouts and all the resources that came with it. It’s in one handy dandy file. So you can totally check that out, coffeeandcoachingmembership.com. I recommend it. It’s gonna be a great resource for you. I’m so glad I was finally able to meet with doctor Kizzee today on the podcast because she’s so knowledgeable about working with teams of teachers and differentiating the coaching work that she does to reach them in the way that they’ll respond best. I know firsthand how challenging it can be to get teachers on board with coaching cycles. It’s sometimes the biggest hurdle is to get people to let you in their rooms. So differentiating to meet their needs is an excellent way to help them get the most out of your work together. Once a teacher has a good experience with you, they’ll come back for more.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:08]:

So if that first experience can really meet their needs by being excellently suited to their personality type, even better. You know that you’re going to have a returning customer, a repeat customer. So I’m super happy to welcome doctor Kizzi to the podcast today. Thank you so much for being here today, doctor Kizzi.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:04:28]:

Well, thank you for having me.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:30]:

I’m so glad we could make it. Can you introduce yourself to our listeners, talk a little bit about who you are, how you ended up here, and what kind of work you focus

Dr. Jane Kise [00:04:38]:

on? Sure. You know, I’m an I’m an outside consultant, which means I get to wear a lot of hats. And I use a few basic tools that mean I can, it may sound like I’m trying to be a jack of all trades, but everything flows together. And, you know, I I started out in in banking, which gives me street cred with math teachers. I am an English major, so I can work, you know, in different content areas. You know, I learned my facilitation skills from many different places and then, started writing with, people who are experts in the tools that I’ve started using and got invited into schools, with people that attended other things that I did. And that’s been my main focus where I’ve done my research and, if you know, I don’t I do some corporate work still, but I think 90% of my time now is with schools. And, you know, I see myself as trying to strengthen whatever’s going on in a school and help the leadership or the teachers make the most of their time and, maybe streamline some things by having some different ways of approaching learning, teaching, collaboration in their toolkits.

Chrissy Beltran [00:05:50]:

You know, I have to ask about that. What are some of the differences that you see? Just I’m I’m so curious between schools and and other industries.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:06:00]:

One of them, I mean, it’s it’s gotten a little bit better. But in when I first came to schools, I was so startled by how teachers thought they had to do everything on their own that, I I worked with some schools where teachers thought sharing lesson plans was stealing or being lazy. And in the corporate world, you know, one of the the last team I worked with, we were like the three one all for one, one for all. What can you do that we can all do? And so that that collaborative spirit was built in because we had too much to do in too little time, which I think sounds like any teacher in any building. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:06:38]:

Yes. For sure.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:06:41]:

So that I mean, that was one of the the biggest. I also, sometimes feel that, teachers or the whole school industry has been taught. We’re in it for the children, and that’s kept kept us, and I I include myself as an educator, sometimes from being as political as we need to be. You know, I see things done to schools that people in other fields wouldn’t allow because they’ve they they’re just more aware of what shouldn’t be happening. And teachers figured out too far down the the pike that this this won’t work, that this isn’t sustainable. So that’s the other the huge difference that, I see.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:20]:

That is I’m so glad that you mentioned that. And I just I mean, I know this is completely on a tangent. We’re talking about differentiating coaching cycles here today, but I was so curious when you brought that up. But I feel like so long teach for so long, teachers have been told, we’re in it for the outcome, not the income. It’s like, no. That that’s fine, but this is your job. Everybody should be in it for the outcome of whatever their work is. Well, then what’s the point? If if you’re not in it for the outcome. But you do the job because you get paid. That’s how you can afford to do the job. If you couldn’t afford if you couldn’t do it for free, that would be lovely, but 99% of people cannot do that. So we But I think the 1% don’t choose to.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:07:58]:

It can even make us afraid of, power, because it’s a feminine industry. Not all teachers are female, but we have an archetypal feminine industry. And I’ll never forget this first women’s conference I spoke at. It happened to be in Australia, and they had one of their major, media presence presences speaking. And someone asked her, but don’t you hate power? Her name is Ida Buttros, and, she was a, head of the the Sydney Times by the time she was 24. So and then a major player in charity work. And, she said, you’re confusing power over with power too. I love having power. Power is how you get things done. And I think teachers, you know, we’ve we’ve abdicated some of where we could have power because we’re so afraid of being seen as, too pushy or too graspy. And, you know, it comes over into coaching where there’s some some rules sometimes where I’m going, really? Coaching is the one of the most effective ways to improve instruction. And, you know, as a teacher myself, I wanna I wanna keep improving instruction. You know? I’m always looking for the right person to watch what I’m doing and, add to my toolkit. So it’s it’s that, you know, if you’re looking at at when you’ve got skills, you should be wanting to pass them on and not feeling like, oh, they’re gonna see us see me as, thinking I’m above them or whatever. It it just shouldn’t be that way, if you’ve got some

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:31]:

Yeah. That that’s that’s excellent. I I I feel like I could have you on to do a whole, podcast episode just about that, about the your perspective on that because I I totally agree that we we do see that. We see and I think because it is largely, women in the field, you do see so many I mean, you think about the schools and who gets promoted. I was just talking to to my mom about this the other day. Look at who gets promoted. It’s it tends to I mean, I have nothing against men with charisma, but it tends to be men with charisma. I mean, if you think about how many teachers are women versus how many administrators. Yep. And it’s startling sometimes, and and I think that some of that does have to do with the relationship with power and how how women are told that that’s not something that you want. I think that that trickles into the whole across the whole field.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:10:21]:

You know, and it’s it’s, one of the things that came out of that Australian conference was I, you know, wrote a book on women in school leadership with one of the other, one of the other presenters who, of course, now is a great friend of mine, Barb Waterston from the, ASIL education group in Australia. But, you know, it’s it’s easy to keep your head down and not think about how to get it out of the mess we’re in. And, not that that’s the only thing we’re here to talk about, but, I hope that with the last two years, we’ve we’ve had enough, and we’ll figure out a really productive way forward as a profession.

Chrissy Beltran [00:11:00]:

I hope so too. Seriously, big changes to happen. People are leaving in droves because it’s just not it’s not sustainable. So I think that, yeah, you’re onto something. Maybe we will do an episode about women in leadership and education. I love it. So I do wanna know about your differentiation work that you do with with students and with teachers. And my understanding is that the foundation for that work is understanding different personalities, or at least that’s part of your foundation for your work. So could you introduce us to these personality types that can help us understand our teachers better?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:11:33]:

Yeah. You know, for one thing, I think we need a common language. You know, when we walk into someone who’s a very different teacher from us, it’s so easy to, because we teach from our strengths and we have to, we often are teaching in ways that tie to how we learn, and then our beliefs get tangled up into that that everybody learns or that there’s a best practice that encompasses how everyone should be learning. And, like, have you noticed that a group of mathematics teachers just has a different persona than, say, the English department or the drama department or the business department, and that primary teachers are different than, secondary teachers? And those are just patterns. And, when we do research with personality type, we find that there are patterns, in who who goes into mathematics, who goes into teaching physical education, who wants to be with the youngest children, you know, who gravitates up the ladder to, you know, children who, students that can take on more, bigger academic challenges. And so, you know, we all know that we aren’t all the same. And Carl Jung, a hundred years ago, in his practice observed he was a psychologist in, or psychiatrist in Switzerland. He observed these differences in people. And the easiest way to explain it is, you know, there are, people that see the big picture and people that see details. Right? Mhmm. We can all do both, but when we see information, our mind goes one way or the other. And that’s that’s part of the differentiated coaching model. And then the other half is, we have people that are logical decision makers and values driven decision makers. And when you take those four different things, you’ve got four different coaching styles, you know, that that when you combine those different letters.

Chrissy Beltran [00:13:24]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:13:24]:

And you can just think, you know, the entire mathematics department in most it was not I shouldn’t say that. You’ll have about 70 to 80% of your math teachers being logic driven, and you’ll have about 70% of your English teachers, for example, being values driven. You know, primary teachers are more likely to be values driven. You go up the scale, and they’re also more likely

Chrissy Beltran [00:13:46]:

to be detail oriented, which is good because they’re teaching spelling and rules of grammar and all the things that are detail oriented. And when

Dr. Jane Kise [00:13:55]:

you get up into things like, you know, physics, then you want the big picture because it is the big picture. So, you know, that and that’s the the very smallest way to explain it. These are recognizable differences. You’ve been in meetings where someone said, this is

Chrissy Beltran [00:14:14]:

the logical way to go,

Dr. Jane Kise [00:14:15]:

and someone goes, but it’s going to affect Jamal and Kyria and John different than it’s going to affect the others. They’re they’re putting themselves in the shoes of the students. And, it’s a very different thing from just going with what the data says, for example. We need both. It’s

Chrissy Beltran [00:14:33]:

not

Dr. Jane Kise [00:14:33]:

an either or, but we have these preferences. And so this is the model I use, and it act it works for adults and children. It goes across cultures. I used to be head of the international association, and I’ve got colleagues all over the world. So, it’s you can use it, you know, to look at better ways to manage your classroom, to collaborate better, to, because it deals with the information we perceive. It’s at the heart of teaching, and it’s at the heart of coaching.

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:01]:

How interesting. So if a coach kinda figures out what their personality type is, how can they use that knowledge to help them better relate to different people?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:15:11]:

Well, number one, if if, coaching isn’t working I mean, you never make a judgment and you never say to someone else, well, I’m a big picture person, and it’s obvious you’re a detailed person.

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:21]:

But if

Dr. Jane Kise [00:15:22]:

you’re getting that like, if they just for one example, I am married to my, personality opposite, and he was a physical education teacher, you know, married to the English major. And if we were planning lessons together, because we didn’t sometimes, if he started asking a lot of questions through his detail orientation, I knew immediately that I’d skipped way to the big picture and hadn’t filled in all the pieces for him. So that I mean, you can start thinking about how how, where do I see that I somehow put up a roadblock with the teacher, and how might that react relate to how I’m coaching. So, you’re never it’s it’s like you’re you’re making a new hypothesis about what will work, and you’re not labeling anyone. As a matter of fact, all the personality types are great ways to be. You know, there’s just no better or lesser type. There’s no better teachers. There’s some that, don’t go into teaching as often because they aren’t as successful in school as, it currently is.

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:27]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:16:28]:

But there’s no reason in in the cognitive processes that they’re that that’s why that is. So it’s you can think of it as, a shortcut to code switching. You know? Those teachers speaks a different language. How can I just shift what I’m doing to get their attention?

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:47]:

Can you talk a little bit more about those roadblocks that each personality type would have?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:16:53]:

It can be, you know, I I break it into four, coaching styles. And I do just wanna say that these are brain based. A colleague of mine, Dario Nardi at UCLA, wired up students and, you know, we don’t have time to go into all of it, but people, you know, we all all people have some brain patterns in common when we’re reading, when we’re doing math, when we’re juggling, which are some of the activities you went into. But when you take two people of the same personality type, the similarity at a statistically significant level goes from about 30% similarity to between 5090%. So these are real differences.

Chrissy Beltran [00:17:36]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:17:37]:

And, you know, I I my husband’s group, I call the, coaches useful resource. And they you know, so much of of coaching, especially if you’re trained in the cognitive coaching model, which I do love, but, you know, those questions around, you know, what ideas do you have? The the open ended question, my husband’s group is going, well, aren’t you being paid to help me come up with new ideas? And if I had one, I’d already be using it. And they work best when they’re given something that’s tried and true and proven. And so I will often you know, what’s the problem you wanna solve? They’ll say, well, my students aren’t engaging. And I’ll say, here’s something you know, if it’s a math room, I’ll say, here’s something I’ve tried in several math rooms. And they’ll say, okay. Let me look through. I’ll answer all their questions, and they will try it. And then once they’ve done that, they’ll modify it, change it up, apply it to something completely different, start really recreating it because they’re grounded in something that they can trust. And one of them once said to me, you know, I won’t experiment on my students. I wanna know something will work. So there’s sort of the antithesis of cognitive coaching, which is really you know, most when I look at the cognitive coaching model, it’s model, it’s just made for people like me. And I’ve worked in school districts where every single coach is the same group as me, what I call the coach as collegial mentors, where it’s that wonderful partnership model, and you’re there to just foster ideas. And there’s not it’s great way of coaching, but it’s not the only one.

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:18]:

Mhmm. So then your your type, you said, was, big picture and Yes. Okay. And values driven? Okay. And then your husband was, detail oriented, logic driven.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:19:28]:

Yep. Okay. And then then you’ve got the, detail oriented, values driven, and they just wanna help each child. Each child is an individual. So if you bring something as a coach, they’re honestly thinking about how it will work for their different students. Mhmm. They’re the ones that want their classroom just to be a place where every student feels welcome. And they’re if anything goes wrong, they think it’s their fault. They’re just and so, you know, I actually spend more time in their classrooms. They love modeling. They because they’re so inclined to, take the blame themselves, which, you know, it’s not a bad thing. You just wanna make sure you’re, discerning where the fault really is. It could be that, you know, just had a bunch of tired children or or whatever. But I’ll often spend more time there so I can point out what’s going right because they don’t always see that. They’re they they quickly see what’s going wrong. Mhmm. And they love, you know, collecting you know, I’ll often say, let’s watch one or two students. Who are you most concerned about? And so I’ll have my eyes on that student or we’ll be collecting something so you can really see how that student’s affected. And then, you know, they’re on board. They too. Once they see the the progress, they’ll take whatever we’ve done and change it up and do it a different way and, get very, very creative within their own sphere. My group, with Jim Knight, who’s another coaching expert, he and I were talking about it. And you almost have to, we don’t like to be told what to do. We love to be creative. It’s like herding cats. You give us a new idea, and we’re like, ah, how can I change it?

Chrissy Beltran [00:21:10]:

Uh-huh.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:21:11]:

And so when you’re coaching us, you you’re best stop saying something like, what would you like to change in this? And if you let us have that permission, we’ll go, oh, well, I guess I could try it your way once. Right. Yeah. And it’s just that, understanding that drive to make it unique, and that translates into the students too. It’s only about 12% of the population of of students, but, they so desperately need to not do it just like everybody else. Interesting. And then, you know, the last group I call it coaches expert. You know? And if I know a teacher, they they they can they could be seen as being a a force of debate, and resistance when really they’re just trying to check what you’re saying against what they already know. And if you’re not ready for the barrage of questions, it can seem like they’re attacking you versus their real piece of, is this good? How do you know? Where did it come from? How do I actually use it? And once they, get all the all that or if they already trust you, which is a wonderful place to be in with them, their co you know, I I remember just for example, one time, a teacher middle school teacher was working on better questioning in his classroom and, helping, create not just first level factual questions, but go to larger ones. And I watched the lesson, and he said okay. Afterwards, he he just caught me leaving, and he said, what do I need to do? And I said, well, you noticed how you lost, student focus if you’d broken it up into these three pieces. And he goes, got it. Can you watch the next class? And that’s all he needed. There was no big coaching cycle in his case because, he understood the principles. And and I find that so often with that group. It’s not that they’re better or no more. It’s that they need a different kind of support. And so the support comes, you know, in what can seem like the argument, and then you’re working together to fine tune things.

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:17]:

Mhmm. Yeah. That’s true. You’ve seen these personalities whenever you have a meeting and you’re working together and you’re trying to get everybody to function to produce something together. So they walk away with something useful. And you’re like, oh my goodness. These people these people are gonna drive me nuts because they’re not communicating. And it it can be so challenging sometimes when they’re in a group, even whenever we’re one on one. But I feel like whenever you have a team of teachers with six different people on there and they all embody something different, they can it’s so hard sometimes to get them on the same page.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:23:48]:

And when they understand this Mhmm. It changes. They aren’t looking to be carbon copies of each other. They actually become resources to each other, in a in a very good way. And what we’ll we set up new protocols. You know, it’s,

Dr. Jane Kise [00:24:05]:

I get so frustrated when a team’s protocols are things like, we will be on time. We will respect a norm. It’s unfortunate

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:17]:

that we do have to say it, though. We do have to say it, though. We do have to say it, though. We do have to say it, those, free spirits.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:24:24]:

And I I do think part of

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:27]:

it part

Dr. Jane Kise [00:24:27]:

of it comes from whether the meetings are a a good, use of their time or not.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:32]:

That’s very true. Sometimes that is the case. Sometimes you do have individuals that they’re gonna be on my, you know, their own drummer. But, but, yeah, you a lot of it is is my are they getting something valuable? Are they walking away with something that they can implement or that they can use or that is useful to them so they know why they’re there?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:24:50]:

Yeah. Just, you know, one little example of understanding. On one team, we had a math teacher, useful resource, you know, detail oriented, logical decision maker who also was in, the military reserve. And it you know, everything reinforced his unbelievably structured way of teaching that had it set had some beautiful things around it, especially for the population he was working with. And on that same team was, just the most imaginative,

Chrissy Beltran [00:25:25]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:25:25]:

More do you remember the character Emma Thompson played in Harry Potter, professor? What was her name? That that taught divination that she was just almost a little like

Chrissy Beltran [00:25:37]:

yeah. Oh my gosh. I’ve said I should know that name. So Trelawny, Dibyl Trelawny.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:25:42]:

Trelawny. Thank you. Yeah. She wasn’t that bad, but, I mean, picture picture those two Yes. Stereotypes, and they were on the same team. And the, the the detail oriented teacher said, you know, when I say I will do something, something, I know exactly what’s on my plate, and I’ve actually thought about whether this new thing will fit, and so I’ll follow through. And I think what happens with you is you’re excited by the idea, and you think it’s going to be on your plate, and somehow it falls off. And so we need this sort of, I would rather you just said you weren’t going to do it. Yeah. And it was he he said it so beautifully because they had this understanding of the personality. So he wasn’t attacking her. He was trying to use an analogy to, help them get along better. And we saw that over and over. Or, one team had, there there’s other pieces of personality. You know, the coaching styles, I’m trying to keep it somewhat simple. But we all know that some people are much more structured and, scheduled than and others are more free flowing. And one team, every teacher was free flowing. And that one of the teachers was able to use this language to say, you’re making me do all the structure, you know, or we’d fall apart, and I need this shared. Can we you know? So it’s it’s those kinds of respectful conversations that come out of having this common language rather than, everyone you know, I I I’ve got called into one middle school where the teachers had decided to respect each other professionally and never talked to each other, which,

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:22]:

you know, it increases we can do it.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:27:26]:

It they’re working too hard because there’s things that they could be sharing. And

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:31]:

Oh my god.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:27:32]:

And when they got this language and we used it in a very simple way to start out with, a simple way that took four hours to solve a problem, I should say. But when we did it, can I say they broke out the champagne? I mean, you know, they really had a profound new respect for each other. So, you know, you don’t you don’t have to become an absolute master, but I I see too much damage done when there isn’t a common language, including the leaders, just accidentally assuming that those who are at least like them somehow aren’t toeing the mark.

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:08]:

Yes. You’re it’s so true. I I feel like, I’ve seen that happen so much. We had a teacher who was very gifted artistically. She was a classroom teacher, and she, I mean, she was if you needed something amazing and beautiful, you went to the teacher’s classroom, something creative and brilliant. And she was very, big picture planner. That was the way she she thought. And I used to think that way. I was definitely more of a big picture person when I was in my classroom. And then when I became a coach, that did not fly with the people that needed the most help. They were like, we don’t know what you’re saying to us. We don’t know what this means. What do I do first and second and third? You know? How do I know what to look at? How do I know where to go? Like, it was I had to be like, really get into the nitty gritty because I started out with very broad, like, oh, let’s think about the experiences that we want our students to have during this unit, and then and we’ll pull together a different you know? And they were like, what does that mean, though? You know? But it took me a while to get comfortable with that, and then I became now I’m it changed me a lot. I am super detail oriented now in a way that I was never to I was not like that before. So I don’t know if that’s scientific or not, but I feel like it coaching made me a different person.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:29:26]:

What what we would say, you know, like, I I I mean, if I don’t know something about personality type, my best friend does. I mean, I’ve written at least a dozen books on it, done, you know, primary research, etcetera. I’m not trying to brag, but, just saying

Chrissy Beltran [00:29:41]:

I’m gonna point your view. Yeah.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:29:44]:

And and we would say that you’ve developed the skills you needed. You know? A toddler if you know what you’re looking for, you can see these differences in toddlers. You know? The logic oriented ones line up their trucks by color or, you know, they’re already sorting fruit loops or m and m’s or whatever it is on their tray. And the values orient like, my son is, values oriented. And at age three, he was watching, you know, Homeward Bound from behind the couch because he was so worried about the older dog.

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:10]:

You know? Watch that movie. Okay. So brother did something similar. He ran to the bathroom and hid in there, and he was like, I’m not coming out. And we had to watch the end of the movie so we could go tell Ben that it ended okay. Come back and see the the dog make it all the way back home. It was horrible. So, yes, I know exactly what you’re saying.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:30:28]:

You know, my my my daughter was the one that was sorting the trucks and materials, and now she’s a speech and language pathologist in a school. You know, she’s very good at stepping into the stews of children and knowing what they need. And my son’s a librarian, which, you know, it has it has the aspects of both. Yeah. Logic and and values. And so, you don’t people who mature

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:49]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:30:49]:

Start to gain skills and do what’s appropriate for the moment. You don’t wanna live in the afternoon like of life like you did as a toddler. And, I’ll you know, it can be hard for educators to pull apart, what they’ve learned from what’s natural, and yet those unconscious biases come from what’s natural. And that’s that’s my one piece on, of course, you can do both. Good. You’re a normal person who’s maturing. And, you know, think about when you’re tired or, if you’ve been teaching the same class for a long time, you can stop seeing what students who just don’t think like you need. And so

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:30]:

Yeah. If, you

Dr. Jane Kise [00:31:30]:

know, taking the time to try and get by, thinking you’re ambidextrous in these things means that you’re gonna be more open to, no wonder I don’t wanna teach that. I have one I have one teacher, a very experienced probably thirty years in the classroom and and a master teacher, who’d been very resistant to a new district curriculum. And when she really understood her personality, she said, now that I understand I’m almost hardwired to resist how that curriculum works, I’m much more open to using it. And she did. You know, she still used some of her tried and true things because they were good. You know, she the it was an interesting situation because the principal had hesitated to really push her into the new curriculum because her results were just as good as anyone who was using the new curriculum because she was so good at what she did.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:21]:

Yeah.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:32:22]:

And yet some of the students needed. That’s why the district had switched. And so having her I mean, she she embraced adding the new stuff once she understood basically why she would have hated it as a student without the right scaffolding.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:36]:

Right. It’s it’s self awareness. Once you have self awareness, then you can say, oh, well, this is an area that maybe I’m not you know, maybe I could be a little more flexible or maybe I could be a little more aware of my time. And and like my husband, I’ve had that that same conversation that the two teachers had about, the plate, how much is on your plate, and knowing how much is on your plate. I’ve had that conversation with my husband so many times because he is definitely big picture guy, and I have become detail oriented person. Like, that’s but some that’s something I think I compensate in our relationship. That’s what I have to be because that’s the missing piece. So Yeah. He’s not gonna be it. It’s not gonna happen. That that’s an area that is gonna be he’s just not gonna focus on growing that area. I mean, he has obviously grown it, but not to the degree that I feel like it needs to be in order for all that needs to be missed. We have two children. I work from home. He has a demanding job. Somebody’s gotta keep track of the calendar. Yeah. So, Yep. So yeah.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:33:31]:

Yeah. And, again, you know, that’s maturity.

Chrissy Beltran [00:33:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Somebody’s gotta do it, so you have to figure out how.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:33:40]:

Yeah. And I think, you know, usually, if if a school is really using this, you know, one school district, every single, instructional coach got certified. We have a wonderful blended learning program that we actually developed for Procter and Gamble, and then I’m allowed to adjust it to certify people teachers to use, or educators to use the, a personality tool in education. And so they they certified every coach in the district so that they can have conversations. And it it’s so simple. You know, you don’t have to I mean, I I used to teach the MBTI Myers Briggs certification program. That’s one tool, but people have to be certified. There’s another online tool that’s an there’s two online tools. One’s, you know, an experience, where you’re watching videos and deciding for yourself. And then there’s another one where we’ve we decided we had to come up with a free one because half a billion people a year take a free quiz to find a personality type, and it’s only 50% accurate. Oh, and they sell your data. So we have

Chrissy Beltran [00:34:44]:

Of course. They do.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:34:45]:

A bunch of us a bunch of us came together, and we’ve got a pretty good one. It’s at personalitywizard.com. And if you invest the time in the in the twenty minute experience, you’ll come up with your personality type, and then there’s quite a bit of information. But, you know, if you’re just working with a teacher, my solution tree books, you don’t, I don’t know if I should say this, but you don’t have to own the book to print off some of the reproducible masters. And in the coaching culture book, you know, there’s a there’s a chart from the chapter on, you know, collaboration, and you can just give the, you know, I often, there’s one I’m working with your opposites, And I’ll tell people, just highlight, the things that are most important to you. You know? Like, I’m an introverted coach. So often after you ask me a question, it might take me two or three seconds to answer. I’m really thinking about it. Or right after I’ve observed your classroom, can I have five minutes to just organize my thoughts? I can give you the data to look at too. I’m not keeping secrets, but just understand. You know? I know if you’re an extroverted teacher, I know you need to talk it out, but just give me, you know, one second. That’s one thing that’s important to me. Now on this chart, what will help us to work together? Are there some things here that you should tell them, you know, you want me to know? And it’s, you know, it’s just a neutral conversation piece. There’s several handouts in in that particular, book that, you know, you can get at Solution Tree that just let you have those conversations. You

Chrissy Beltran [00:36:12]:

know,

Dr. Jane Kise [00:36:12]:

there’s a whole one on, you know, the Myers Briggs terms, union terms, it’s sensing versus intuition for detail versus big picture. Because the sensing types, first, know what their five senses detail for them and then past experience. And intuitives, it’s it’s not that it’s not the, oh, I have a gut feel sort of intuition. It’s that information takes them to hunt just connections and analogies, which is where, you know, the big picture. Oh, this reminds me of this. And the teacher’s looking at you going, but I’m teaching that. Why are we talking about this?

Chrissy Beltran [00:36:49]:

Yeah. Yeah. They had trouble following

Dr. Jane Kise [00:36:50]:

the So Mhmm. So you can just go down the characteristics of the two, and and the teacher will go, oh, I’m more on this side. Uh-huh. Or they might be, well, I can do both, but as a child, I was over here. And it just gives you some clues.

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:03]:

Mhmm. How interesting. You know what I like about it is that it can be used to say, okay. These are actually some strengths that we all bring to the table. This is something that you’re good at. This is, you know, an area that you might be more strong in than me. And so you can use that to kind of like, I can think of the teams that work together the best, that were the highest functioning teams. They would say, oh, mister so and so, he’s our resident. Whatever. You know? He’s the one that’s so good at doing this. Miss so and so is the one who’s so good at doing this. And they could honor that about each other. They could see the differences and say, you are so creative. You have such a great vision for whenever we’re starting a new unit, but you, mister so and so, are great at creating a test that’s aligned to the standard. You know? So then they could pull together and share the load.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:37:44]:

And that’s you know, when you see each other’s strengths rather than seeing it as an irritation. Because, you know, every strength overdone becomes a weakness and comes with a blind spot. So we can drive each other nuts. And so, you know, I talk sometimes about it being a cosmic joke. But the other thing well, there’s two things. One is we know from research that teams where personalities are similar often norm very quickly. You know? Start getting along and working, but they aren’t necessarily effective. Teams that are diverse, it may take a longer time for them to learn to work together, but they usually come up with better solutions. And in education, where we have these strong patterns with, you know, I have worked with, say, a social studies department where everybody was the same coaching style, an English department where everybody was the same coaching style, or math where it was, eight out of 10 were that detail oriented logic. And so a unanimous decision, it’s actually dangerous because that’s not the students in your classroom. Yeah. You know you don’t have to know the types of your students. I’ll guarantee you’ve got every single one.

Chrissy Beltran [00:38:57]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:38:57]:

And, we have a horrendous record of leaving out a We’ve got research, from several different places, showing that, one of the groups makes up about 60% of the students in alternative schools, and they’re only 25% of the population. So they’re you could just say they’re allergic to school.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:17]:

And which group is that?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:39:18]:

We do it.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:19]:

Yeah. Yeah. Right. That’s the it’s not structured to support kids who are not fitting a certain mold. So which group is it that’s that’s making up the majority of kids in alternative?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:39:29]:

Well, I’m you know, there’s 16 personality types, and I look at students for learning just a little different than I look at coaching. So it doesn’t quite quite, but they are they free flowing extroverts is is really what you’re looking at. Mhmm. You know, a lot of the other there are a couple other groups where their drive for uniqueness can get them into trouble, but usually, they pull out a a rabbit out of a hat and figure out some other way to do what they need to do. Mhmm. And, you know, it up until, you know, the nineteen seventies, these students could drop out of school and go get, you know, $60,000 a year job with, you know, a tool and die certificate or start their own business or, you know, they they were I met one, I know, on a plane. I mean, I don’t type from afar. I would never say you’re one of these, but, you know, he worked on lobster boats in Maine in the summer and salmon fishing over in Oregon another part of the year and, had some other job that he could do whenever he wasn’t doing that and, went home as often as he could to take his mom on wonderful vacations with his extra savings, but she had to be flexible because he’d never know when a deal would come up and he could go. And he was totally happy with his lifestyle, and you can see how he would have struggled to take an advanced placement test. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:40:49]:

Yeah. Right. Oh, interesting. So then if we’re thinking about the way that teachers work with a coach, sometimes just getting them interested in working with a coach is is really more than half the battle. It’s it’s like the whole battle. Once you get that done, once they’re interested in working with you, it’s easy part after that. So can knowing a teacher’s type help us frame coaching cycles in a way that sounds really appealing to them so they go, oh, yeah. I think that’s something I wanna do.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:41:17]:

I think, you know, it’s it’s a hard question for me to answer because, of course, I’ve never done it the other way.

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:25]:

Sure. Okay. Maybe I should say, how do we frame, coaching cycles in a way that sounds appealing to each type?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:41:33]:

Well, you know, there’s a there’s a piece of what I do that that that’s totally separate from, personality type. And one is understanding that every teacher is teaching from their strengths and their beliefs. And that means, you know, kinda asking them to change religions. We’re asking them to change their classrooms. So that’s part of it. I want to, figure out what problem they want to solve. And yet I’ve never had that. There’s always a way to tie it to to the school initiatives. You know? I’m just searching around for, what it is. So, you know, like, we had, a school wide initiative for student centered discussions or accountable talk or whatever you wanna whatever your label is, which is one of the highest equity strategies out there because whoever’s doing the talking is doing the learning, and you can talk at a higher level than you can read and write at. And, I remember one teacher said, she was so she we I’ve been working with their PLC team, but she hadn’t had me into her classroom, which is another thing I I think a coach should be working in a collaborative situation because half the work then then teachers are learning from each other. That’s another one of my my big things. But at any rate, she, was complaining about her first hour class that had just learned helplessness up the wazoo. You know, she gave them a problem that was just a little different from what they’d seen before, and they’re just, I can’t do this. And she said, do you think you know, because we’ve been talking about student centered discussions for, like, five months. And, she said, do you think it might help? And I was like, yeah. I think it’ll help.

Chrissy Beltran [00:43:13]:

I think

Dr. Jane Kise [00:43:13]:

I can come out you know, I just jumped on the problem she wanted to to solve tied to the school initiative. And, yes, you can set up small group student centered discussions that helps students learn to go further than they were going on their own. Right? Mhmm. And so we we worked on discussion protocols and such, and, she increased that and the helplessness went away. So, that you know, it’s I I can think of another teacher whose classroom was an absolute mess. I was sent in. And, I won’t go into the whole story. It’s one I get criticized for a lot because people can’t believe that a classroom was so bad. She’d never been taught to to plan a lesson. She needed individual attention.

Chrissy Beltran [00:43:57]:

Yeah. And

Dr. Jane Kise [00:43:57]:

it had never been given to her because she’d just been passed on from one, one leader to another rather than someone figuring out what she needed.

Chrissy Beltran [00:44:06]:

Mhmm. So Yeah. Starting with those needs that are impacting the teacher and that and and it’s I think it’s admirable if she was able to say, well, I don’t really you know, if you if it was clear that she didn’t know how to plan a lesson and that she was open to to wanting to plan a lesson, you know, then that’s like, to learn that process, then that’s

Dr. Jane Kise [00:44:25]:

really impactful. Or I just don’t know what children would wanna read or, what else what else has been I mean, I’ve had I these kids just don’t pay attention, and they’ve got to read this thing. How do I capture their attention? Or, who else flipped into my mind? I mean, often it’s classroom management. And, of course, there’s an instructional principle that that needs to be put into practice to help with that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:44:55]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:44:55]:

So I’ll start with whatever. And it could be that, I mean, I remember one teacher that’s as well. You know, they get 60% through this big project that should be so exciting and and half of them never finished. And I looked at it and it was like, you’re right. No sixth grader can keep their enter no sixth grader. Forty percent of your sixth graders are going to fail because it was too long without many deadlines and such. And Yeah. You know, he was a big picture person. But the problem was the completion rate.

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:23]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:45:23]:

That’s all he thought was was wrong. And, we actually added quite a few things that helped the the students who didn’t think like him do a better job. So

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:34]:

find spots like you mentioned.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:45:36]:

Yeah. So I I mean, you you can bring me a really weird problem to solve, and I’ll do my best. I can’t think of the one off the top of my head that’s that’s more radical, but, you know, I wanna start where people are.

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:48]:

Mhmm. Yeah. So then you mentioned before that you have, like, a very logic driven teacher, a teacher who’s just like, okay. I just need to know. Tell me what I need to do. You know? What do I need to change? Okay. I’ll I’ve got it. I’ll go do that. I’ll go apply it. So then in thinking about that, what and you you mentioned that that teacher didn’t need this big whole coaching cycle. They were like, quick. Give me the feedback. Okay. I can do that. I get it. And, like, they could immediately see what that could look like in their classroom. Is there some are there some personality types that are that need more of that structured, okay, pre conference. Now we’re gonna have the classroom work. Now we’re gonna have a post conference. You know, how does that how does that how do you differentiate that based on the personality types of teachers?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:46:29]:

Well, I think everybody can benefit from the cycle. If you if you’re thinking about, you know, what’s the problem they wanna solve? How are we gonna do that? What evidence are we gonna collect? How are we gonna tweak it? What what what’s different is the support that goes on in the middle. And how much how much might, you know, obviously, I want the teachers doing as much of the work as possible, not, not me just handing them things in an unproductive way where they’re not learning. But you you know, like I mentioned before, you’ve got this group that works best if I hand off an exemplary lesson that they can they learn by doing. Yeah. You know? They, and so giving you know, if you have them plan from scratch, they’re questioning whether it’s going to work. If you have them try something that they can, you know, that they expect to work and that they’ve got a whole different set of questions in their mind. You know, so that’s you’re still doing the cycle, but it’s different. You know, they finish that piece, and it’s almost like then the cycle starts on, alright. Now I wanna try this. Will this work? Will that work? Let’s see if this will go. You know? The the one group the the, what I call coaches encouraging sage is almost the the, perfect candidate for the true coach the the typical coaching cycle where you preplan and, you know, we’ll work together on getting something and then see whether it works and tweak it. And they want the full thing. And that like I said before, that’s where I do the most co teaching, the most modeling, the most time in the classroom observing because, often too, they’re very willing to share with everyone else when something works. They’re pretty excited about it. So especially if they’re

Chrissy Beltran [00:48:12]:

type? Oh, yes. Which personality type was that?

Dr. Jane Kise [00:48:15]:

They’re detail oriented and student oriented. So, I mean, every teacher is student oriented, but their values oriented. And so if something works, they’re really excited about it, and they want it you know, they wanna spread the word so that every student can have that chance.

Chrissy Beltran [00:48:28]:

Mhmm. Well, they might not be a bad like, if you’re trying to figure out how to get coaching cycles off the ground and you’ve not really done any yet, it might not be a bad place to start with those teachers because they might be really good commercial for your work for other people.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:48:43]:

It’s not silly to start with an I mean, I’m I’m I’m not trying to stereotype. But extroverts learn by talking. It’s not about who’s shy or who goes to parties. It’s about who gets their energy from interaction. And so you’re more likely to have an extroverted teacher talking to other teachers because that revs them up even more for the classroom. Whereas we introverted teachers, you know, I I know, you know, when they get permission, they may hide on their lunch hour with a headset on so that they get their energy back for the afternoon classes. So, you know, that there’s that practical piece. The the teachers like me, the big picture, values driven, they often wanna take like, if if I’ve done professional development or if they’ve been working on something, they often want to, one said, I wanna take it 60% and then talk to you. I wanna see how far I can get because you’re not always gonna be around, but then I want your input, Mhmm. You know, because that’s what you’re here for. So that’s very, you know, very, very different from the one who wants to start from scratch. And then, again, like I said, the the the the the coach’s expert, the logic driven, big picture people, they can see it in their heads once they’ve got enough information. I I remember mod I modeled in everyone’s classroom for something we were doing with students, and the, the big picture logic person watched me once and did it 10 times better than I’ve ever done it anywhere anytime and added stuff on in the moment just making it you know, he could just it’s not that he objected to seeing it. It probably kept him from having to read stuff, and he he liked seeing me work with the students. That’s not the point. It was that, he could just, poom, take it from there almost without even talking to me because he saw saw it immediately.

Chrissy Beltran [00:50:36]:

It right away, and he was like, ah, I can see what I can do with this. Yeah.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:50:41]:

And, you know, because I know these I sometimes I almost have the best time working with my opposites because, you know, once you trust each other, then you know you’re gonna have this wonderful, push pull. And do we have enough details? Do we have enough choices? Do we have enough, you know, room for the imagination for the students? Do we have clear outcomes? You know? Get that back and forth on it, really benefits everybody. And it it, once you trust each other, it’s a wonderful, wonderful collaborative partnership.

Chrissy Beltran [00:51:12]:

Yeah. You can kind of envision it like a little puzzle. Like, if you have one of each of these four components and you put it together, then you’ve got, like, a dream team where Yeah. All your bases are gonna be covered. You’re gonna pull together the most amazing stuff because you’re not gonna anybody out.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:51:26]:

And if you don’t have everyone and you know the language, then you can, make sure you’re asking the questions that no one’s asking.

Chrissy Beltran [00:51:33]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:51:34]:

You know, like, you know, it it can be as simple as, okay. Wait a minute. Do we have a way for, us as, you know, a student to do something that’s a little different? What are we gonna do, or how are we gonna address that? And it can be as simple as everyone’s going to do, you know, let’s just say you’re trying to teach students to take notes. Every student’s going to learn how to take cliff notes. Everyone’s gonna learn how to not cliff. Cornell notes. Sorry. Everyone’s going to learn how to do graphic recording. Everyone’s going to learn how to do a standard outline. After that, once you’ve tried it, you can choose one of those anytime you want, or you can come up with your own way and show it to me and show me why it’s you know, how it’s working for you. And and often, you know, you’ve got someone saying what you know, if you had a whole team that was structure oriented, they might just teach the three. If you’ve got a team that’s if if you don’t have anyone on your team, you can be asking that question. How do we let students be unique? And still make sure that you’ve got a safety net in place so that uniqueness doesn’t mean, the learning targets aren’t met.

Chrissy Beltran [00:52:46]:

Mhmm. Yeah. You’re kind of already talking about next thing that I really wanted to know about, which is how knowing a teacher’s personality type can help coach and support them as teachers to meet the needs of their students. And you’re getting at this idea this idea of as they’re planning for students, they have to be thoughtful about the areas that maybe they wouldn’t have been thoughtful about. You know, naturally, they have to be aware of their maybe the areas that are not their strength so they can say, okay. What am I gonna do to address this? Because I have kids in my classroom who are not gonna fit what my instinctive, plan would be.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:53:20]:

And so, you know, that’s my book, doable differentiation. Mhmm. And, it’s based on, you know, the personality types as well. Not not that you’re teaching to the types, but you’re making sure no types left out all the time. I I have used the acronym STEAM squared that if you’re teaching around the cycle of the different what would I the cognitive processes that go into learning, The, you’re helping students be successful. You’re helping them thrive because every student’s getting a chance to shine. You’re helping them become more, engaged if you’re if you’re doing this right. You’re also, helping them be more agile because, you know, we all, you know, you just think of that common combination of detail oriented logic and how how we all have to do that. You know? We all need math is no fun unless you know your math facts, for example. Mhmm. And so we all

Chrissy Beltran [00:54:18]:

have to buckle down, forget that

Dr. Jane Kise [00:54:20]:

I like to be unique. Although there are fun ways to teach it so that I don’t mind, memorizing all those math facts, you know, games we can play and writing in different colors or or whatever it is. But we all have to do that. We all have to read on our own. That’s another whole learning style. We have to, you know, the the the, truth is now no one wins the Nobel Prize by themselves. Right? It’s almost always teams that get the science prizes, and so we have to learn that collaborative solve problem solving. Mhmm. And then there is a hands on component to learning. You know? You have to be able to actually work a battery circuit to understand how it works to be a good scientist and inventor. And so we’re teaching the kids to be agile. And if you’re doing all that, you’re helping them mature. So that’s the steam. And, so a teacher who figures out which they which of this, cognitive process, the personalities they default to, they can make sure they’re adding something for their opposite. Not every moment, because every kid has to learn in all the styles. Mhmm. But over the course of time, teaching around the cycles. And, it can be as simple as having a choice of two questions on a test. Ones that’s very objective, like summarize the plot. And the other one’s much more subjective, like, write, a letter to a character that shows you understand the plot of the book. Mhmm. You’ve gotta have clear learning targets or it won’t work. You’ll you’ll go nuts grading. But if you if you set it up, then you can give them that choice. And you’ll have I I’d say on that question, probably 75% of your students or maybe even 85 will simply summarize the plot, And then you’ll have the first the next 15. You’ll have so much more fun grading some papers that are different. It’ll keep you awake. You can put them in amongst the others and see what they come up with. My son once asked, can I write my report on Louisiana as if I were the first explorer writing home to my mother? And the teacher said I I thank the teacher for letting him do that, and his teacher said, well, at least I know he’s not plagiarizing. You know? That freedom to do it in his own way. It’s just one little example of how that how that can play. And it it can seem scary to a teacher until they see the work that comes from the students who just need that freedom.

Chrissy Beltran [00:56:45]:

So true.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:56:46]:

And not all the time. Not all the time.

Chrissy Beltran [00:56:48]:

Yeah. But that’s a that’s a good point. There’s there’s, like, an element of control and comfort whenever we’re working from what we are naturally inclined to do, and we feel like, okay. We know what the outcomes are gonna be. We know what’s likely to happen. I don’t have to worry about, you know, kids going in a crazy direction that I don’t know how to ring them in or bring them back. And how do I I I I feel like a challenge that a lot of teachers that I’ve worked with have is how do I how do I still like, you keep talking about the standards and having learning objectives. How do I still hit these things? How do I make sure kids are getting to these things while allowing for creativity? And that’s what you’re talking about is making like, the teacher has to know where you’re headed so that they can build in things that will support kids in accomplishing those things in different ways. And but then the teacher has to stretch their brain so much if that is not their natural way of thinking.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:57:43]:

Well, that’s I mean, do it not to advertise, but I mean, the the whole I wrote a book on differentiation back in 2006, and in the years, when the differentiation came out last year. So in those intervening years, I was trying to make it more practical, more pragmatic. You know? What was I learning as I worked with teachers? It came the first book came from my work with teachers, but I was there for extended periods of time at that point in my career, you know, working with the same, teams. And, so then I had ten years of, because that book actually did well, then all of a sudden, I’m going and doing one day workshops, and I don’t like doing hit and runs. I like doing something that, you know, lasts. And so it was like, what works? What makes it more practical? And so it’s 12 strategies, one of which is, you know, half a dozen ways to give true choices once you know your learning targets. And, you know, it can be as simple as do five out of the six math problems. Mhmm. And when you you know, autonomy is one of the the top human motivators. And, when we started doing that, you you know, 70% of the kids did all six, you know, but they had the choice. And some of them would cross one out, you know, just, I had my choice on which one I didn’t wanna do. Or, you know, it could be as simple as where they stand where where they work. You know? Do you have a bookshelf that’s the right height for a student to read or write at that lets the extroverted kids that, need to get their wiggles out to just I remember the the one of the stories in the book is a teacher who tried that with a high schooler who said, I just can’t write anymore and said, well, why don’t you just try leaning against the wall and just getting out of his chair? The student wrote and wrote and wrote. And we always joke, if you don’t plan for movement interaction, they’re gonna move and interact when you don’t want them to.

Chrissy Beltran [00:59:35]:

That’s true.

Dr. Jane Kise [00:59:35]:

So it’s part of differentiation, in very constructive ways. You know? It’s not, oh, I’m just gonna let them go stand by a wall. There’s all kinds of ways. I call it planned movement. It’s another whole strategy that builds it in. So that’s you just you just get more aware of why some students are struggling and, or rebelling or not working up to potential or all the other things we say when we don’t understand a fundamental difference than what they need.

Chrissy Beltran [01:00:07]:

Mhmm. Yeah. That sounds like a great tool to have handy when you’re planning with a teacher, and maybe you’re both the same type. And you’re like, what could we do? Let’s let’s let’s look into some resource to help us, think of some options here because we’re both coming up with the same stuff. Yeah. How great. So that’s one place people can go to learn more about differentiating for students. Where else can people go to learn more about this idea? You mentioned the quiz already, which I love. Right? The personality wizard. Is that right?

Dr. Jane Kise [01:00:35]:

Yeah. The Okay. You know, I assume you do you post some sort of resource thing? Because I’ve got a QR code.

Chrissy Beltran [01:00:42]:

Show notes that we can

Dr. Jane Kise [01:00:43]:

k. We’re gonna have in there. I’ll send you the QR code that gets them to the teacher experience. Okay. And that that will give you some information on these cognitive processes and on the coaching styles. Personalitywizard.com takes you to a whole bunch of it’s it’s the same owners, the same same group of people. And, you can just you know, the one has a longer we tried to make a five minute experience. That’s what the teacher experience is, and it’s not as accurate, because nothing in this five minutes is. But if if you sit and talk with a colleague about it and look at the information with a colleague, you’ll get what you you’ll you’ll get a deep experience. And you can also go deeper if you, it it it shows you which type of the four groups you are, and then you can verify it, which takes you deeper. And you you’ll have access to more. So that’s that’s the other simple way of doing it. Of course, there’s the differentiated coaching book. And

Chrissy Beltran [01:01:43]:

Awesome. Thank you so much. Well, I have enjoyed this so much. This is such a neat conversation. And, I mean, figuring out how people think and work is so interesting, and it’s also so challenging because we think and work the way that we think and work. So I’m so happy to have someone here who has done all of this research in this area and can shed some light on people who sometimes maybe their brains are a mystery to us.

Dr. Jane Kise [01:02:07]:

Well, thank you. And it’s, you know, it it’s so fun coming in as an outside coach and having this particular set of tools because often I’m sent to the teacher who’s struggling the most, and they feel heard. You know? They’ve they’ve already seen me in some capacity, and it’s not that I’m a genius. It’s that the system helps them go, no wonder. And so frequently, they’re going, this is how I misjudged, and they’re already ready for the conversation, and that’s that’s worth the price of admission.

Chrissy Beltran [01:02:38]:

Yes. That’s awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today, doctor Kiefe.

Dr. Jane Kise [01:02:42]:

Thank you for having me.

Chrissy Beltran [01:02:47]:

So I know that was a bit of a crash course, but isn’t that interesting, the idea that this is one of the fundamental ways that we can look at how people think and approach their work so that we can better understand ourselves and better understand our teachers and better understand students. I just think it’s so neat. You know, if I were working with a team of teachers regularly, I would definitely wanna know what their types are, but I think it could be helpful. Like she mentioned, if you’re coming in and you don’t really know the teachers yet, like, at the beginning beginning of the school year where you haven’t had enough time to interact with people, this might be a really cool back to school kind of thing to do or, you know, in a team that maybe is having some dysfunction. This could be a great tool to have them take the quiz, talk about it with each other, and identify it as strengths that they bring to the table so that you can really get that team to work together well. There’s a few other resources that can help be helpful to you as you’re working through your coaching cycles and thinking about how you can support all of your teachers with them. Episode three is the coaching cycle in six easy steps. I break down the process for you there, and that’s a really great one to start with. Episode 68 is providing different levels of support to create access points for all teachers. And I feel like this kind of addresses a little bit of what we talked about today, that some teachers are gonna want a model lesson. Some teachers are gonna want a video. Some teachers are gonna want some research or an activity that they can use. Some teachers are gonna want a a sounding board. Everybody’s gonna want something different. If if you think about it based on personality type, it makes total sense. Using a coaching menu to provide those different levels of support and give them access points depending on what they’re interested in is a great way to get the door open for you as a coach. Episode 80 is getting in the door with a defined role, and that’s actually a coaching call. So in that co that coaching call, I talked with a coach who struggled to get into some classrooms and we really talked about defining that role, nailing it down. So they know the teacher knows exactly what they’re there to do. And there’s no, there’s nothing shady. The teacher isn’t looking at you like with some side eye going, I don’t know what you’re doing here. And I don’t trust you. The next episode, episode one twenty five, we’re going to keep talking about coaching cycles and we’re going to look, we have taken in-depth look at how we can use the gradual release model to support teachers in

Chrissy Beltran [01:05:05]:

growing in their independence through coaching work. Because I’ve talked to lots of coaches who have struggled with teachers who kind of get stuck. So we work with a, with a teacher and then they do not maybe move anything into independence. They, they do the work during the cycle and then that’s it. And then whenever you leave everything kind of stopped. So we’re going to talk about how we can help that teacher transition that learning into their independent teaching. And I really look forward to sharing that with you till then happy coaching. Thank you for listening to Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching podcast. Want more coaching ideas? Check me out at buzzingwithmissb.com and on Instagram at buzzing with miss b. If you love the show, share it with a coach who would love it too, or leave me a review on iTunes. It’s free, and it helps others find this show. Happy coaching.