How to Develop Teacher Skill with Desi Klassen, ep. 290

How to Develop Teacher Skill with Desi Klassen, ep. 290, Instructional Coaching with Ms. B Podcast

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:01 – 00:01:29]

Hey, coach, and welcome to Instructional Coaching with Miss B. We are talking today about how to develop teacher skill with my my guest, Desi Clausen. This is part of my mini series about staff development ideas for instructional coaches. If you’re listening to this in real time, you know that we are really you know, we often try to front load a lot of learning in the summer months and leading into that first chunk of school, but we have PD opportunities all year long, and we also grow teachers in classrooms. So that’s really where we’re gonna focus on today. We’re developing individual teacher skill in the classroom. I actually have a little free download that I think you’re gonna love. You can get, free d free d free p d tools for coaches in the show notes. So you’ll get the classroom sweep documents to help you plan, what topics of PD are needed, a PD planner, a step by step guide to creating powerful PD, and the PD checklist all in one download, plus PD and coaching tips right into your inbox. You can grab that at buzzingwithmissb.com/episode290 at the bottom of the show notes. My guest today, Desi, is a Canadian teacher and an instructional math coach who has a degree in theater. She is currently pursuing a master’s degree in educational leadership and administration, and she shares about her teaching and coaching work on Instagram at at mathing with teacher Desi. So let’s welcome her. So let’s welcome Desi to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

Desi Klassen [00:01:29 – 00:01:37]

Thank you for having me. I’m really excited. I’ve really enjoyed connecting with you on Instagram. I’ve appreciated our chats. So thanks.

Chrissy Beltran [00:01:37 – 00:01:47]

Yeah. Me too. I love that. I’ve been following your account, and I just think you share so many great, really, actionable things that you’re doing in classrooms, and I’m sure people will love to check it out.

Desi Klassen [00:01:47 – 00:01:48]

Thank you.

Chrissy Beltran [00:01:48 – 00:02:03]

So today, we are talking about how to build teacher skill in the classroom. So in my last episode, I chatted with one with a guest, Michelle Rahi, about how to build teacher knowledge. So how does skill differ from knowledge in the classroom?

Desi Klassen [00:02:04 – 00:03:17]

I think that’s a really great question because I I as an instructional coach, I have a certain skill set, but I don’t necessarily have to be knowledgeable about all of the teachers I work with, their curriculum. Right? So one of the things that I focus on is really building the skills that they their goals, their personal goals, whether it’s, about number talks or if it’s focusing on problem solving and how to consolidate because my role is specifically for math and so when I’m doing instructional coaching for math, I work with teachers across the grade levels. So, I don’t have to be, an expert in all their curriculum, but we’re focusing on the same skills. So, that skill set is something that can apply in other areas as well, And I think that’s the benefit of getting to work collaboratively with an instructional coach is that you’ll take those same skills and apply them in different subject areas as well. And the growth that you get from the collaboration and being able to work together, it really drives those goals in in a positive way. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:17 – 00:03:35]

I love that. I like the focus on it’s more like a partnership, right, where you’re working along this alongside the teacher. So they may have specific content knowledge that is something that you don’t have, but you can help them develop the skill in terms of what that looks like in the classroom. Like, we’re talking more pedagogy and actual practice.

Desi Klassen [00:03:35 – 00:04:35]

Absolute absolutely. And especially because teachers are the experts of their students. And we know that every year, you get a new class. So Yeah. Every year, you’re reflecting and changing, and you have a new sort of inquiry. And so those but those deep skills that you’re looking for, it through a math lens, really developing, a a depth of knowledge, those skills are things that you’re gonna use every year. But the teacher really is the expert in their class and in their curriculum. And my role is sort of to help them through that spiral inquiry approach where they’re like, what are the things that this group really needs, or what are the things I’m trying to deepen my understanding of? And as we know, as educators, education is constantly changing. So we’re we’re adapting. Right? And in elementary school, we’re seeing those adaptations every year because we’re constantly getting new groups of students. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:35 – 00:04:55]

Yes. Yeah. As as you’re you’re talking about, I’m thinking about how you know, whenever you’re in the tea you’re a teacher in the classroom and you’re maybe breaking down your standards. Right? And so you’re thinking, okay. What is the content and then how in, like, in what, context? And, you know, you have to break you have to unpack them. And so I’m thinking as a coach, you’re kind of like the the knowledge that teachers need to have

Desi Klassen [00:04:55 – 00:04:56]

Yes.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:56 – 00:05:24]

Like, you mentioned, like, they need to know themselves how to use manipulatives to teach, you know, I don’t know, some a division or something. Mhmm. But then the skill is actually the how. It’s like the what is the knowledge, and the skill is the how do they impart that to kids. That’s the practice that we’re trying to grow because they can know how to multiply, but they but the how is what you know, how do we get that into the kids? You know? How do we help kids develop this?

Desi Klassen [00:05:24 – 00:06:23]

Yes. And how do we do it with this group? What is their prior knowledge? What are they coming into the class with? What is their dynamic, and and sometimes we have groups of students that, you know, they’re they they’re very talkative and they like to share and then sometimes you have groups that are a little bit quieter. So you might be trying to develop their ability to collaborate with each other and those types of, skills apply everywhere but at the same time they’re always different. So you might feel really great about a teacher might have feel really great about their problem solving and then the next year they might wanna adapt something for that group of students. Or maybe they’re changing grades. Right? And I’ve I’ve done that multiple times where I’ve changed grades, and then I kind of you’re rethinking how you’re applying your knowledge, and the skills are the same, but the way you apply them changes based on the grade group as well.

Chrissy Beltran [00:06:24 – 00:06:30]

Yes. That makes we have to be responsive to the kids in our classroom. Just like as coaches, we are responsive to the needs of teachers. Does that make sense?

Desi Klassen [00:06:30 – 00:06:31]

Exactly. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:06:31 – 00:07:04]

So what are some of the things that you’ve seen coaches do or schools do, thinking they will grow teacher skill, but they don’t? And what I am picture my first thing that I picture is whenever we sit teachers in a room for one day and have them learn how to like I mentioned before, like, this we’re gonna do manipulatives all day. We’re just gonna use manipulatives. This is how we’re gonna do it. But then it doesn’t translate to the classroom, and then there’s, like, no follow-up. That was my first. So whenever I wrote this question, that’s what I was picturing because I’ve seen that done a million times.

Desi Klassen [00:07:04 – 00:07:05]

Yes.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:05 – 00:07:17]

And it’s kind of like you just poured money down a well and time down a well. You know? But, what are some things that you can think of that we that schools frequently do, but then they they don’t actually impact what a teacher can do in the classroom?

Desi Klassen [00:07:18 – 00:07:38]

Absolutely. I think your example is prime. That’s something that everyone agrees with that if there’s no follow through from the professional development. And I think there’s a lot of, like don’t quote me, but there’s a lot of research saying if you don’t apply that somehow within a certain amount of days, you’ll never come back to it. Right? Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:38 – 00:07:50]

And it diminishes fast. It’s like if you don’t do something with it, like, the next day, it’s already I wanna say I don’t know the fact. The I can’t remember the numbers either, but it’s like a like a triangle. It goes, like, very quickly.

Desi Klassen [00:07:50 – 00:10:26]

You know? Quickly. And so one of the things that I I have seen I’ve experienced that myself. And sometimes that’s part of just you’ve chosen to go to a PD and you’re interested, but then maybe you didn’t have the capacity to follow-up. One of the things that’s been highly effective in my building is that our staff does professional development together. So it’s often teachers who are doing it. It’s driven by, goals that the staff has, and then we work together after. But, of course, if the goal the goal of a PD, it’s not always gonna be equitable. It’s not always gonna be something that works for everyone. So in a in a coaching stream where you are getting to have that one on one, I think that number one, the goal has to be something the teacher wants. Right? Like I can’t make the goal for them because then they’re not going to be invested, right? And it’s also okay to shift and change and that’s part of that process of those coaching conversations where we kind of adapt, like you said. But I think that it has to be one. The teacher has to be interested in that goal, and it’s something that is actionable. So if we work on something together, then you’re gonna be able to do it again and and replicate it in your classroom. And one of the models that I’ve sort of, because I’m new to coaching, I’ve sort of been doing it, unofficially for a while through Ed Leaves and just through my own inquiry, but this is a new role for me. And so kind of one of the structures that’s been successful is when I do something with a teacher, it’ll often be like an I do where I model, and then we’ll do a we do where we model it together. And then the teacher will do a you do where they do the modeling or they do the teaching, and I’m the observer. So we’re kind of cycling through I do, we do, you do, which is how we teach children. Right? That’s the model and and lots of we do. So if if you’re not feeling like you’re ready to move on and release responsibility, then adapting and doing the we do together, but there has to be a release of responsibility. And I think that that’s one of my goals because I love teaching. So I’m so excited to get in classrooms and and co teach. So one of my goals is personally, is to be like, okay. When are we ready to transition to the release of responsibility, and how are you gonna continue once you’ve owned this piece on your own. And I work in a very collaborative building, so we have this privilege in in the ability to do that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:10:26 – 00:10:45]

That’s so nice. I love that. That’s that’s something that I I teach coaches about as well is using the gradual release model in coaching. So we start out, like you said, with, like, a modeling where the the the coach is modeling something. And you wouldn’t you don’t always have to use this, but this is one approach if you if teachers are trying to learn something that they need a lot of support in. Right?

Desi Klassen [00:10:45 – 00:10:45]

Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran [00:10:45 – 00:11:09]

And then the, you know, we do is like, okay. Well, you do with my help. I mean, sorry. I do with your help, and then you do with my help. Right? We’re kind of gradually transitioning through that co teaching, letting the teacher have more and more responsibility as they feel comfortable. And then the you do is like an observation. So you’re gonna try it out. I’m gonna observe and give feedback. Or I can do in the moment coaching if they still need a little more of that you do with my help.

Desi Klassen [00:11:09 – 00:12:07]

Yes. Yeah. I absolutely agree with you. And I think that part of the trust when you have that great trust that you’re able to kind of read the situation or some of the teachers I work with, we have a queue if they want me to jump in, and so it’ll be like what do you think Mrs. Clausen? Right. So then I know they’re cueing me that they want me to, kind of share my opinion or, you know, sometimes something comes up that kind of surprises both of us. So, we sort of pre plan all of those little cues together so that I’m not stepping on top of their, trajectory with the lesson because I don’t want to do that and I don’t want to, I want us to understand our roles and I’ve noticed that on your platform you have a lot of, great organizers that kind of show that that collaboration looks different. It’s not always the same and that you can kinda go back and forth between those different, roles when you’re coaching. Yeah. And I think that’s important.

Chrissy Beltran [00:12:08 – 00:12:44]

Yeah. That’s that flexibility because teachers are gonna need different things from you, you’re right, at different times. And if they’re feeling really confident with something and they’re, you know, making good gains in it, you don’t, like you’re right. You don’t wanna be like, no. No. No. No. Let me I’m still in charge of this lesson. Let me you we that’s the idea is to build the capacity. Right? So if we’re not keeping that as our goal, then we’re kinda missing the point of what we’re doing, and we do need to be flexible in doing that. It’s we just like with students, we have to be responsive. We provide the scaffolds, but we have to pull those scaffolds back the second they are ready to do it without the scaffold, or else we they never get it. They never do the thing on their own, which is the whole point.

Desi Klassen [00:12:45 – 00:12:55]

I absolutely agree with you, and I think that that’s something that coaches have to think about about their role in those situations and so we’re constantly reflecting, right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:12:55 – 00:12:55]

Yes.

Desi Klassen [00:12:55 – 00:13:20]

And trying to understand where we’re at and our conversations help guide that but because I’m, I love teaching, I’m still a classroom teacher part time, I have to kinda compartmentalize my my classroom teacher side and my coaching side so that I’m I’m giving that, responsibility to the teachers. And because I have great relationships with them, it it it does shift and change. So Mhmm. It’s really positive.

Chrissy Beltran [00:13:20 – 00:14:07]

That. Yeah. That’s a great way to build teacher skill. So then what do you do if you see that maybe you’ve worked with a teacher over time, you know, you’ve even used the gradual release model maybe, you know, or, you know, you’ve done different approaches with them, and they just kind of stop doing the thing you worked on, which frequently happens. Right? You’ll you’ll work with somebody for a while. They maybe they’re working on even something as as minute, like that micro coaching, something so small as, like, wait time. So then, you know, then you see the teachers starting to ask very yes or no questions, and as soon as somebody shouts out an answer, they move on. Right? They’re like, yes. That’s right. Move on. And so they’re not giving kids the wait time, the think time. They’re not, you know, randomizing their calls or whatever their you know, what you’ve worked on. What do you do when that happens? How can we support teachers in that situation?

Desi Klassen [00:14:07 – 00:14:18]

That’s a really great question, and I think that, it’s something that you think about a lot as a coach because you don’t want to affect teacher confidence or seem like you’re criticizing.

Chrissy Beltran [00:14:18 – 00:14:19]

Yeah.

Desi Klassen [00:14:19 – 00:15:58]

Right? And that’s a big part of the coaching conversations. I think that I’m for me personally, I’m always trying to, go back to what are our goals, what are the things we care about, having when I understand my role. So I’ll say what is it I’m observing today and then, part of it will be here’s something I noticed and how did you feel in that moment. This is kind of how I observed that And I think that when, you’re you have a trusting relationship and you’re growing your, how it’s reciprocal, you’re able to have those conversations, which might seem hard, right, because you don’t wanna be critical. But if this is our goal, I’ve kinda noticed that maybe it’s it’s kind of changed a little bit, and how do we get back to that or sort of trying to ask guiding questions so that they’re reflecting on that. And I know as someone who, has gone on maternity leaves and come back and you sort of you know? So or there’s a big break in in time and then you kind of it’s not that you don’t care about it, but you sort of forget. And so I actually find it helpful when I’m sort of called back to or reminded to those things that I think are important. Mhmm. And so maybe that’s a little bit of your your personal note taking as well. So I try to keep I know you’re really big on organizers as well, and I appreciate that because I try to keep track of our goals, the things we care about, the things that we’ve been working on, and then trying to pull that back into the conversation and and in a in a positive manner. So sort of disagreeing with the idea, not the person. Just saying this is sort of what I what I saw happen. So

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:58 – 00:15:59]

Mhmm.

Desi Klassen [00:15:59 – 00:16:46]

I find that that’s helpful. And because I haven’t been coaching for that long of a time, I haven’t had that experience yet where maybe it’s year two or something like that. And it’s like I’m seeing that long term. It’s more that I’m seeing, like, our goals are shifting, but then trying to hold on to the previous goals and being like, are we still doing this? Is this still happening? And so thinking about how we’re layering on. Like, our our goals change, but we wanna keep layering those skills on and making sure that they’re still happening. And if they’re not, sort of identifying why aren’t they happening. Is there something else that we’re working on that’s kind of inhibiting, like you said, wait time? That’s a that’s such a great example for math because we’re always trying to find the balance of, like, are you thinking or are you stuck?

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:47 – 00:16:47]

Yeah.

Desi Klassen [00:16:47 – 00:17:38]

That’s my next key, and we want processing, and we want students to be able to have time to think and time to collaborate, but we’re also trying to build fluency. And so we wanna we wanna keep things moving. And so wait time is, like, in in math, that’s one of the top things that we’re trying to identify in the moment. And I might see that differently than the teacher. Right? I might see the wait time very differently. I might be as an observer. And so that’s, I think, sometimes when we flip again. K. So I’m the one teaching, and the teacher’s watching. Observe the wait time. What did you think? How long was it? How did it feel? So when we can see each other, I think that’s helpful sometimes because I think the teacher view and the observer view, it feels different, and I think we all know that. It doesn’t feel the same.

Chrissy Beltran [00:17:40 – 00:18:44]

Yeah. I think I’m I’m picturing that in the classroom. And how many times have you asked a question and somebody else is observing you? Right? Especially when somebody else is observing you, you feel like, oh my gosh. I have been standing here for, like, eighteen minutes, like, just waiting. This is way too long. And so then you feel the pressure to move on and move forward, And, really, you were you would not have normally done that, but having the other person in the room kind of changes the way you’re you’re you feel about time passing. So I like that you’re going back and forth and saying, okay. Well, I’m gonna model this, and then let’s talk about it. Do you think it was a reasonable amount of time? Do you think were there individual students that could have used a little more time? Did you see students who were, like, so close to getting in but then we moved on too quickly? Or did you see kids who finished and became distracted? And, you know, what do you do about that? You know, so I think those conversations are really important, and and seeing things done different ways. You know, visiting a colleague is another great way to have those kinds of conversations because they can go see it done in somebody else’s class and be like, oh, okay. This is what it looks like when somebody else does it. You know?

Desi Klassen [00:18:44 – 00:19:25]

Absolutely. Or queuing again. Right? Queuing with your students. I’ve started to ask my students and the students in the classrooms that I work in. Are you thinking or are you stuck? We have a lot of nonverbal cues, like thumbs up, sideways, down. Yeah. We have, ways to communicate and but, again, the teacher is the expert of their students. Right? So I wanna validate and appreciate their, view and perspective of what’s happening. But I know as a classroom teacher exactly what you’re talking about, how it does feel a little different when you’re being observed, and I’m not sure that that ever changes. I don’t think it matters how long you’ve been a teacher or your experience.

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:26 – 00:19:26]

Yeah.

Desi Klassen [00:19:26 – 00:19:30]

I think that there’s always a different sense of urgency when there’s someone else there.

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:31 – 00:19:31]

Yes. So I agree.

Desi Klassen [00:19:32 – 00:19:33]

That’s it’s subjective.

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:33 – 00:21:11]

Yes. I agree. And I think that, the it can improve to a degree if you’re comfortable with a person. Like you said, building those relationships are so essential, to developing teacher skill. Another thing that might be helpful in those moments is having, like, a visual reminder because sometimes we’re not working in the classroom anymore. Right? We we’ve worked with the teacher over time and then, you know, let’s say on some kind of engagement strategy, we leave the classroom because we’re working with somebody else or the teacher just says, no. I’m good. I’ve got it. I just wanna try it out for a while. Okay. We leave. We come back in maybe three weeks, a month, and we see it’s gone. Right? It’s just gone. And so, like, having the conversation that you mentioned is great, because it brings it to the forefront. Hey. We worked on this. Can you tell me a little bit about how that’s going? You know, when I was in here earlier, I noticed that you were, not using that strategy. Is there a reason? Did you deliberately choose something different or did it just kinda slip away? And then, helping the teacher create a visual in the room is really helpful, I think. Yes. So, like, how am I gonna remember to do this? Well, if they actually refer to a plan, which lots of experienced teachers don’t stare at a lesson plan during the lesson anymore. Right? But if they do, you can put something in there. If there is something like, if they’re going to be using their projector, you know, and maybe they’re like, because in math, we do a lot of projecting because that way we can model and kids can see what we’re doing. So if they’re gonna be doing math, maybe there’s something on the projector, maybe there’s a sticky note, maybe there’s a sign, maybe there’s a kid who says something, you know, depending on the age group that you’re working with, but building in those systems that help the teacher remind themselves because they’re trying to remember a lot of things. And so if something’s not second nature yet, it might just not be solidified.

Desi Klassen [00:21:12 – 00:21:59]

That’s actually a really good point. And I think that when you start to build those things up, just like you said, the students start to apply them. Mhmm. So I do a lot of coaching even with my students to do, leadership with math. And so sometimes when I’m not there, I’ll see them writing my little think pair share or one minute for this, two minutes for this, and and having those timers. I like how you identified sort of a universal design though there where you’re like, it could be a visual. It could be something on the, on the projector. It could be something that you chant or say. And I I like that multimodal way. So because I think that’s how we really get that ingrained in the classroom where we’re seeing it and hearing it in different ways. I think that’s a really important point.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:00 – 00:22:09]

Yeah. I think that’s that’s true. Like, have it it can’t become part of the culture of the classroom and part of the way that a person teaches until it’s, like, really integrated.

Desi Klassen [00:22:09 – 00:22:09]

Yes.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:09 – 00:22:14]

And and that’s just that really just takes time and repetition for it to feel nature.

Desi Klassen [00:22:14 – 00:22:57]

Yeah. Repetition. I learned from someone who coached me when I was on this journey, repeat what they said. Repeat what they said. So we’ll be like, and it’s not, it’s it seems like a management tool, but it’s not. It’s just that we need to hear our thinking constantly and the answers constantly. And so repeat what they said. Repeat what they said. And there’s a lot of teachers that I’ve worked with that they’ve started to do that, and they’re like, I noticed that kids are being attentive during those talking pieces because, one, they have a role they might have to repeat, and, two, they’re hearing it more than once. I’m not gonna remember something one time either. So repetition is so key. Absolutely. That’s a really good point.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:57 – 00:23:07]

Yeah. And, you know, the act of verbalizing. Even if they use the same exact words, over time, those words can become their own. But if they never if the words never come out of their mouth, it they’re never gonna own them.

Desi Klassen [00:23:07 – 00:23:07]

Absolutely.

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:08 – 00:23:28]

It takes time. So I think our teachers are in the same boat. Right? We’re asking them to constantly learn so much, and it’s important for them to have the opportunities to to try again, to do this again, to come back to it. How did it go? How did it go? How did it go? If we really want that to become part of their like, the fiber of their teaching, instead of something that they are doing because they’re supposed to do it today. You know?

Desi Klassen [00:23:28 – 00:23:34]

Right. And you have to feel confident in it. And Yeah. The more you do something, the more confident you feel.

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:34 – 00:23:34]

Mhmm. And I

Desi Klassen [00:23:34 – 00:24:15]

think that that’s an important part. And we wanna I know myself, like, if I’m on that journey, you know, I have to I have to be repeating that task over and over again for it to really be a part of me. And Yes. Elementary school teachers, they wear a lot of hats and their workload is very high and so I think of my job as like trying to support those things like you’re talking about building skill and it’s like my role is the reminder of all those repetitions and the reminder of coming back to things and helping to support that mental load because, like you said, it’s difficult to remember all the things all the time.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:15 – 00:24:22]

Yes. It is. Well, thank you so much. How can people keep learning from you if they would like to see more of your work?

Desi Klassen [00:24:23 – 00:24:54]

I have an Instagram account. It’s mathing with teacher Desi, and I mostly share, math content. I do a lot of, it’s in instructional coaching things, but more, concept mapping. And I’m also doing my master’s, so I share some of my grad school work, which I try to put through a math lens, so some of research and things like that, and some of my student work, which is, a great joy for me too. So thank you.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:54 – 00:24:56]

Awesome. Alright. Thank you so much for being here today.

Desi Klassen [00:24:56 – 00:24:57]

Thank you.

Chrissy Beltran [00:25:00 – 00:25:45]

I really enjoyed my chat with Desi. I think she shared some very specific actionable things, but also the big idea of what we’re trying to accomplish here, which is we do all these other things so we can build the skill in the classroom. Right? So I just love that. The the building skill takes place in the classroom, not everywhere else. We have got to support teachers when the actual skill is meant to happen, so I loved her examples. Next week, we are talking about how to make PD extra fun and special with Jessica Whittaker. She’s actually been a guest on the podcast a couple years ago, and so I’m really excited to have her back. We’re gonna talk about Jessica’s favorite strategies and ideas for adding some memorable fun to PD so that actually translates to the classroom. And until then, happy teaching. Or Happy coaching. Happy both.