What Do Coaches Do? Advocating for Equity with Dr. Lindsey Wilson, Ep. 121 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

What Do Coaches Do? Advocating for Equity with Dr. Lindsey Wilson, Ep. 121 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:00]:

Are you new to coaching? Starting out as a coach can be incredibly overwhelming, especially when you aren’t given much direction from your administration. That’s why I created the new coaches playbook. It includes a roadmap to help you start building your coaching foundation and a guide to seven podcast episodes in order that will give you the steps and ideas you need to build relationships, define your role, communicate with your admin, and make a plan to start coaching. Coach, what’s your instructional coaching personality type? Have you ever wondered what superpowers make you a really strong coach and what areas you can strengthen with just a little bit of direction? Well, now you can find out. I created the what’s your instructional coaching personality type quiz to help you answer this very question. Just head to buzzing with missb.com/quizwithacapitalq to take the two minute quiz and get your coaching personality type sent right to your inbox. Even better, you’ll get a playlist of podcast episodes handpicked just for you to help you hone your superpowers and strengthen your areas of growth. I’m so excited to share this quiz with you, so don’t wait to take it. Go to buzzywithmissb.com/quiz and learn so much about your coaching style. You’re listening to Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching podcast, where we believe that every teacher deserves a coach, and every coach does too. I’m Krissy Beltran, an instructional coach, resource creator, and coffee enthusiast, and I’m your host. Stay tuned for practical tips and honest coaching talk that will help you coach with confidence. Hey, coaches. Welcome to episode 121 of Buzzing with Miss B, the coaching podcast. This month has been all about what do you do here anyway? Or a less irritating way to say that could be, what do coaches do? We talked about having a coaching mindset, facilitating planning, and data PLCs too. But today, we’re gonna spend some time talking about something important that coaches can do because they have a different perspective on the school system. We’re talking to doctor Lindsey Wilson about how coaches can advocate for equity at their schools. Doctor Wilson is an author, trainer, and speaker on topics of diversity and equity. I’m so excited to have her on the podcast today because as coaches, we have a unique perspective on how things work at our school. We can see the decisions that are made at the top, and we see classrooms where those decisions actually play out. And we can tell how they’re actually affecting students when sometimes the people who are making those decisions or policies don’t see the effect on kids. Doctor Wilson is here today to help us think about how we can advocate for our kids from our positions as instructional coaches. So I’m really looking forward to welcoming her to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here, doctor Wilson.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:03:01]:

Thank you for having me. I’m I’m really thrilled to be, here and and to talk about a topic that’s so dear to my heart.

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:09]:

It is. I can tell because it comes out in your work. I was, you know, I was able to I followed you on Instagram for a while. I was able to take out check out your website, and I just saw so many great, like, different talks that you do and different presentations you have. So I’m really excited to talk to you today and and hopefully give some people some tools that they can walk away with.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:03:27]:

Great. Yes. I’m looking forward to it.

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:30]:

Awesome. So could you introduce yourself to our listeners and maybe talk a little bit about who you are, how you ended up, you know, doing the work that you’re doing, and what kind of work you focus on right now?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:03:39]:

Absolutely. So I am doctor Lindsey Wilson, and I, help organizations and schools, teachers, and other early childhood providers understand, equity and really their role and and system changes. My model is equity is everyone’s work and so we all have a really important part to really closing the disparities that we see here in The United States across the country. And so how I ended up here, I actually worked with an early head start program for, about almost ten years until worked in various capacities, started as a home visitor, and then moved to a mental health practitioner for Early Head Start program, and it led me back into school as one of the things that I’ve seen, during that time was the different reactions to, fathers, and so actually fathers, I would walk into some homes and fathers would be super excited to see me and ready to share everything that was happening and then I would walk in other homes and fathers would run until my home visit was over and so that really led me back into school to learn more about why and during that journey, I really seen what I would consider, or call, a deficit based perspective happening in research when it, pertained to early childhood education, and and communities of color. So that led me on this path that I am now, and and I focus on equity work, social equity work, and early childhood education.

Chrissy Beltran [00:05:27]:

Well that would be, that’s exactly what I would like to know more about. Can you define equity for us to kind of help us picture what it looks like in schools and explain a little bit about how it’s different from fairness?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:05:38]:

Absolutely, and so, equity and equality are two terms that actually get used and confused, quite often, and so when I describe equity, I’m actually referring to fairness. That’s equity is the route to true fairness, whereas equality really zones in on sameness. And so offering all kids the same exact thing regardless they need it or if they it will benefit or burden them. And so a clear cut example that I often use, I spent quite a bit of time in Seattle, Washington. And so when I moved there from Minnesota, it was quite interesting, it was a lot of peanut allergies, right, and so I use that analogy as I’m describing the difference between equity and equality. And so, equality would actually say, regardless of if a child is allergic to peanut butter, if that’s what we’re having for our daily snack, they’re gonna get it, right? Whereas equity is really about understanding the unique needs of each one of our students and their families, which requires us to know histories around communities and why they show up in the ways in which they do so that we can meet the unique needs of each student, so everyone can thrive. And so I would describe equity as a concept of fairness, which really pushes back, right, on how we were, or how some were raised. If you had siblings or if you had children and one gets more of anything than the other, they often say, hey, that’s not fair, right? And I think, there’s an opportunity for us to redefine and help redefine that for children. Right? And so is it actually not fair or is it not the same thing? And sometimes we really have to, provide the necessary resources for children to to thrive and it won’t look the same for all of our children.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:48]:

Yes, that’s that’s so true. I used my students, I often had students with special needs and and even kids who didn’t have quote special needs, but everybody needs something different. With kids, they used to ask, you know, well, why did they get this and why did they get that? And I would tell them in here, everybody gets what they need. So if you need that, you’ll get it. And if you don’t, you won’t get it. But I have glasses. You don’t wear glasses. Everybody now because everybody should have the same thing? No, that would be terrible. That would not help you. It would actually hurt you, you know? So everybody’s gonna get what they need. And it’s like and to kids that made sense. You know, when like your like your peanut allergy, you know, sorry. It’s it’s the same thing that makes total sense to them. They understand it, but sometimes the adults get a little more hung up on it.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:08:31]:

Well and, you know, that’s funny that you mentioned that because that’s what I often hear as I do trainings for early childhood providers and and, programs and so forth and so, as I’m working with practitioners, they often say, this makes complete sense, now tell me what I tell parents, right? Because it is the parents who are gonna call and wonder why their child may not have gotten the same thing that another child has gotten. And so

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So you mentioned a minute ago a deficit based approach that you were seeing in the research around early childhood, and I just wanted to follow-up on that. What were you? I’ve heard this before, and I feel like I have an understanding of what it is, but I would love to hear what does that look like? What were you seeing in the research around early childhood that you felt represented a deficit based approach?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:09:19]:

So, so thank you for allowing me to clarify that point, and so what I was referencing at that time, again, I was really interested in fathers. Yeah. And so, when I say it based perspective, when I was looking at early childhood research, particularly around black fathers or Hispanic fathers, it often, highlighted them or the research really zoned in on fathers who may not have lived in a home.

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:48]:

Okay.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:09:49]:

Right? Or fathers who, often didn’t work, within the Hispanic culture and so, or excuse me, within the ethnicity, and so, may not have been at home in the same capacity. And so, the research was really lacking just how involved these fathers were in spite of some of the, different ways that families looked, and we know that, research impacts policies and procedures and the ways in which things trickle down into the classroom. And so, if we’re only studying, fathers of color from a certain perspective, then we’re missing all of the goodness that they have to offer, in their own uniqueness. And so, that’s what I mean when I mean deficit based perspective. And and if I don’t in a little more, my research was around African American fathers and this absent, narrative that has been established, that doesn’t resonate with a lot of black fathers.

Chrissy Beltran [00:10:53]:

I saw that on your site and I think I saw that you have a book about that, right?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:10:57]:

I do have a book about that, and so, I actually, so I wrote two children’s books, one is around equity, Fair, Fair, Isn’t It? And that book really, again, stemmed from, I was at a conference and I believe I was in Austin, Texas at that conference right before COVID. And so at that time, Macy had just released or just previously released their equity mission statement and all of this goodness that everyone got and so, helping people understand how to advance that in the classroom and and one of the main questions that I got around that is what are the resources out there? So I took the time to write a book, Fair is Fair, Isn’t It? And it really is about a little girl who’s helping her class understand equity. Okay. And so lots of clear examples there. And and while I wrote the children’s book for children, I really also wrote it for for parents.

Chrissy Beltran [00:11:57]:

Right. Because

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:11:58]:

they will read it to their children. And so hopefully, they’ll be able to shift their lens as their kids are, and so it will be an epiphany together. So yes, so that, that’s one of my books and then My Daddy Did It is my most recent book and it is about an African American father and his young daughter who is really excited about all the amazing things that her and her father do together and all the first memories that they’ve established.

Chrissy Beltran [00:12:25]:

That’s sweet. Mhmm. I’ve you know, I love that you focus on early childhood and I think I’ve never been an early childhood person. I was, like, up in upper elementary person And now I have a four year old, and I’m just so interested in early childhood. And I just love it. Like, having seen her learn so much in the first four years of her life. I have a four year old and a one year old, and it’s just amazing to their brains just, like, explode at this age. And the learning is so obvious, you know.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:12:52]:

They make hundreds, right? And they just really just soak it up and they develop so fast. We know those first five years, is is the prime time for all of, you know, everything to to really happen.

Chrissy Beltran [00:13:04]:

Yes. Yeah. That’s what I always say. If I had if I were have, like, a million dollars or any kind of huge amount of grant money, I would do something with the little kids, the little people, you know, because they’re the ones if you can get get to them there, you’ve made an impact for the rest of their lives. So I was wondering, can you talk a little bit about what your work looks like at that that early childhood level?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:13:25]:

Absolutely, and so, the work looks like a couple of things. When we think about equity, specifically when we’re talking about social emotional skills, right? And so oftentimes we talk about, or we assess young children’s social emotional skills around how they can enter and exit playgroups, the ways in which, you know, they interact with others and so forth, and I really believe that as we continue to really zone in on equity in early childhood, equity falls within that realm, right? And so those social emotional skills, a part of that is what you highlighted earlier, understanding that if I don’t need that particular, resource or service or glasses or items or whatever the case may be, having not only that empathy for the other person who may need it, but also the understanding that, and this is not an early childhood term, but it’s not a zero sum game, right? And so how do we teach children very early on that if you have glasses because they help you see and I don’t need glasses, it’s okay, and we both can, be in the same classroom and we both can get the other things that we need so that we can thrive. And really, I see that a part, a major part of social emotional development. The other thing as it regards to equity work and early childhood is we know that a lot of our curriculums don’t really address the nuances of diversity. I mean, we have some sprinkled here and there, but they don’t get to the actual root of, how diverse our communities are and the historical piece of why things look the way that they do and they impact our little ones in classrooms. Right? And so equity is really to supplement some of those other wonderful curriculums out there that are just missing that important piece. And when we think about ECLIC and things like that, who have done assessments and really have found where there’s areas of growth, teachers can, teachers, coaches, early childhood providers can find ways to supplement, their in classroom education by providing kids these real life examples.

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:53]:

Mhmm. So what are some examples of inequitable practices that you’ve seen negatively affect kids in the classroom, and what are some things that we could do to change those practices?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:16:04]:

Yeah, I think there, there’s a couple of things that we can think about, as we’re thinking about classrooms, right? I think for many years, we focused on representation. Right? So do we have, representation in dolls, around ability and gender and and and race and ethnicity? Do we have posters and things in that nature? And I really believe that it goes beyond, just that type of representation. I believe that that’s, the first step. Right? Because it is important for people to be able to see themselves in spaces, and and in which they’re they’re learning. But, one of the biggest opportunities is to really tap into the funds of knowledge from, the communities of our children. Right? So, like, kids, I always say, like, kids, and I’m gonna use fathers because that’s my, you know, other passion, but kids know their their fathers. Right? Like, they know how they smell. They know the language that they use. They know they may not be able to tell you exactly what they do for work, but, like, they know the tools or whatever the case may be. It’s the same thing from a cultural perspective. Right? And so, most recently, I’ve had the opportunity to work with a classroom, and we talked about what kind of barbershop play area in your classroom. Right? Because so much learning happens in that space for for children of of of color, particularly African American children. There’s so many rituals around, by age one, they go in for their first haircut. And and that’s where, you know, parents are talking about the their child’s development and just there’s so much happening there. How do we bring that into the classroom, right, and really allow our kids to shine and teach other children what that looks like? It’s another opportunity to bring parents into the classroom for them to feel welcome and so forth. So that’s a couple of things. I can go on for hours, so I’ll stop there.

Chrissy Beltran [00:18:09]:

Yeah. It’s really interesting. That’s true. We do like, just for that specific example, we do tend to see the same things. The the post office, the grocery store, right, those same sorts of settings, but but you creating settings that might better reflect some of the experiences that some kids have had, and give them an opportunity to kind of act that out and bring that into school. That is such an interesting idea. I love that. When we think about equity, like, it impacts everybody on a campus. So what are some examples of inequitable practices that have affected teachers negatively? Have you seen anything like that? I mean, I know that I’m sure you have, but what can you tell us about that, and what can we do to change some of those practices?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:18:50]:

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think we see we see inequities, in education in in a couple of different ways. We see inequities on on, preschool enrollment and what students are enrolled. We also see, many years ago, it was this notion well, not notion, but it I’m not sure if you remember the what was it? The 50,000 that 50,000 word gaps. Yeah. So those word gaps and things in that nature. And really, again, when we’re talking about inclusivity and equity, how do we again look at communication different, right? Because we know some cultures rather sing to their kids than read or are are preferred to talk, right? And and so how do we be inclusive in those spaces as well? But as it regards to some so, so, those are some of the inequities that, that we see within early childhood education, and then who are as early childhood education providers are. Right? And so I think that there’s still room for for, inclusivity there, particularly around, for early childhood men. So we’re talking gender, but also intersectionality. Right? So gender and race, or ability and race, within our within our early childhood profession.

Chrissy Beltran [00:20:15]:

Mhmm. Yeah. I think it’s such a it’s it sometimes startles me because I live in and I live in El Paso, Texas. So I’m on the border, the Mexican American border, Mexican US border. And we our population here is, like, over 80% Hispanic, and the teaching population reflects that. And there’s, like, a university here, a state university, and most people go there because their commuter family is often, you know, working and providing for the home and going back and forth. And the teaching population does reflect what the population of people looks like here. So and and we have a tremendous bilingual programs and, you know, across many of the districts. You know, dual language is very common, and it’s it’s available to many. And and so it always surprises me whenever I read statistics about who is who are the teachers in other places and how little they resemble the population of that those cities or the kids that they’re serving, you know? That always surprises me because it’s I don’t see that happening here, but we’re kind of in a bubble, you know? There’s just nowhere else to go. We’re in a desert. There’s not a lot around here. So so I I don’t know if that’s part of it. Like, geographically, we’re kind of isolated. So, you know, that I mean, I don’t know. But, but, yeah, it’s it’s it’s always surprising to me because it’s it’s a pretty stark difference as far as how many people of color, how you know, are are in education, like, actually teaching. And then as you move up the food chain and you have, you know, you’re you’re actually teaching. And then as you move up the food chain and you have, you know, you you have your administrators, they’re more likely to be male. You know? I mean, it’s just it’s really something.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:21:51]:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And that is not the common practice of of of professionals or educators always representing the population that they serve, and so, that’s one of the things that we think about. And then just language inclusivity, and the ways in which we think about how we attempt to be inclusive, right? And so many times things are written in English and translated in other languages, making English the norm, but we we have to recognize that it doesn’t always translate, the same. Right? And so that’s this is a very true concept for the word equity. Right? And so as I’m speaking with, Spanish population, that word does not translate directly in the same ways yet, as it does in English. And so that’s another thing that we have to, you know, just be on the lookout for.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:45]:

Yes. That’s a good point. At at each school that I’ve worked at, we’ve had I mean, many of the teachers are bilingual. The majority of people in the city are bilingual. And so we’ve had a designated individual, a teacher who translates. And because they many of them are were are native Spanish speakers, they but that’s only in the two languages. Keep it. I mean, that’s not any other languages that we might see. Right? Those are the two dominant languages in our city. But, because they were native Spanish speakers, they’re usually very good at I mean, and they’re the designated translator, so they’re good at it. They’re really good at at making it accurate in that language, right, through the intent and not just the translation. But they don’t get paid very much for that. It’s a it’s like a teeny tiny little stipend, and translation is a lot of work, Especially

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:23:33]:

when you’re

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:33]:

translating as many documents as these schools require, you know, to be translated. It’s tons.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:23:38]:

Absolutely. And and and sometimes, and and I don’t know if that’s the case there, but it is added work as well. Right? And so it’s not that they don’t have, their additional work, but that is added to their already full and busy schedule.

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:57]:

Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. I would I would tell oh, send send it to Veronica. Okay. I’ll send it to Veronica. And she’s got, like, a pile of things that everybody else has sent her as well. You know? And it’s and I think she had, like, a $200 stipend for the year. So, I mean, it was just ridiculous. And that and she actually got a stipend. Not most people don’t. So it’s, it’s that is a huge the bilingual program is so much additional work for bilingual teachers, and they do get a tiny little stipend. And it does not equate to the massive amounts of work that they have to

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:24:26]:

do. Absolutely.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:30]:

So what are some common challenges that you see to making positive changes towards more equitable practices?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:24:38]:

Yeah. That’s a great question. So some of the common challenges that that I see, towards moving to equitable practices is, one, teachers have a full caseload already, right, and so there’s a lot of different things happening, and equity is what I like to call both a process and an outcome, right, and so the process piece is just as important as the outcome, whereas diversity is more of a straight, outcome, right? So like, who’s not in the room, and then how do we get them in the room? Okay, we did it. Right? Inclusivity is very much like that. Who haven’t we heard from? Okay. How do we create a space to hear from everyone? We did it. Right? Equity, on the other hand, requires us to do a little more work. Right? So we, one, have to understand the disparities that that we face locally, because while we know that there are some national trends, not every space is exactly the same. And so one, understanding the disparities that are happening, in the classroom. And then two, I think another challenge is we’re kind of going back and forth. I we’ve seen a a large shift where, classrooms and spaces, educational spaces were becoming more comfortable with calling out the disparities to be intentional around, making efforts to reduce them by putting in specific policies, procedures, and and practices. We have seen that take another turn as well. Right? And so, what we know is we can’t heal what we can’t name. Mhmm. Right? And so the example that I I give to classrooms and doctor, you would want them to identify what they’re actually treating before just giving you something to treat it.

Chrissy Beltran [00:26:54]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:26:54]:

Right? And you might not even trust, the treatment that they offer up if you don’t truly understand what is going on. And so when when we talk about one of those challenges, that’s that’s one of the biggest challenges, and then recognizing that inherently, if we are not intentional around this work, we may perpetuate the inequity and that’s hard to hear sometimes because, that is not often the intent, but that can be the impact.

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:27]:

Mhmm. Yeah, that’s a really good point and I Yeah everything you’re saying about I’ve just heard that so many times where oh well nobody really had a problem with any of this stuff until everybody started talking about it or nobody really had an issue with you know racism for example or sexism or any of these things, and now everybody talks about it all the time. No. No. There’s there’s a reason people are talk it’s it’s not that not in that order. It’s obviously they’re talking about it because it was an issue, because it has been an issue, and the only way we can make things better is to figure out what’s going on and talk about it and fix it. But like you said, if we can’t acknowledge what’s happening, if we can’t name it, if we can’t identify it, then we can’t take steps towards towards repairing it because we have to thoroughly understand that issue. And I think we have to understand that issue in ways that many of the people who have made the decisions in the past can’t necessarily understand it. And that’s a challenge.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:28:20]:

I wish I could say it better than you just said it. So thank you for that. And I think the other piece of it is when we hear that, that that that narrative is, to remind people that people have been talking about this for a very long time. Right? And so school engagement is one of the ways that we can think about that. So there has been a long standing, set of literature around how to get, parents of color or in some cases parents, of children who are, who experience a disability actively involved in school, right? And so, while that was the narrative, what that tells us today is that was a problem. Right. Right? So that was a problem that some families weren’t connected to schools in the ways in which others were connected. When we think about, you know, children who are are disciplined and just the the history of, of of our our classes for children with disabilities and how that the root of where that came from, again we’ll speak to the notion of there have been long standing communities that have expressed that there’s disparities or a disparate impact, but they went unheard or they didn’t have the right avenues to for that their their message to be, brought forth. Right? And so it really did take, some people who were in higher levels to make those bold statements and changes, and and so it’s not a new concept by any means.

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:06]:

Mhmm. Yeah. No. Absolutely not. That that’s a good point. I can remember in in high school, like, there was a certain wing of students with special needs, and we never saw them anywhere else. And it was like a cave, and it was just you know, it’s and that’s that’s not okay. And it wasn’t okay at the time. But now people know it’s not okay for the most part, I think. And, and so changes are being made, but that definitely ruffled a lot of feathers for a long time.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:30:34]:

Absolutely. So I

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:35]:

know you share about an equity framework. Right? So what could it look like if a school made an effort to implement this framework and equitable practices from top to bottom? What would that how would that school look?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:30:47]:

Yeah. So from top to bottom, I think it would it would really require four distinct steps. And the first is to normalize, right? So really start to normalize these conversations in creating safe spaces for teachers and for administrators and for parents to feel that they can, discuss this type of, inequities that we see within the school, right? So that’s the first step too, and that’s really hard, Right? And so for so long, you didn’t talk about difference. Right? And so and particularly when you think about what young children were taught.

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:29]:

Yeah.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:31:29]:

Right? Like, oh, don’t figure it out. Like, I’m What does it matter?

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:34]:

That’s big.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:31:48]:

Firsthand. Right? And so so many children were so curious about, what he had on his ear.

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:55]:

Which are totally reasonable. I mean, I hate to interrupt, but that’s normal. You know? That’s for children to be curious about something. Yeah. That’s what they did. They want one because they’re like, well, wait a minute. What is that? And how do I get one of those? Like, it looks really cool. Right?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:32:12]:

And so that was an opportunity that that my family got to take, to also help other families, right, because we had to be intentional with how we frame that. Right, because sometimes it wasn’t in the most polite ways with adults, right, like sometimes adults were like, oh, we can’t believe you would give a kid a Bluetooth. Well, no. That’s not a Bluetooth. That is actually a a cochlear implant and that is how he hears. Right? But but it took a lot for us to also be able to demonstrate to, to Jacob, who’s my my younger brother, that when people ask you, they’re curious. Right? And so it was a learning opportunity both for us as a family not to get frustrated because there was quite a bit of questions around it, but also for the other families to know that it’s okay for your kids to ask about that piece of it, and he’s open to share it. Right? And sometimes, I mean, not all the time because sometimes you just don’t want to do, but for the most part, right? Yes. Yes. And and the same thing around race and ethnicity. And so when I when I was doing home visits, I walked into a family’s home. And me as an African American woman walking, at that time, I was in Mankato, Minnesota. And I walked into a family’s house and the little girl in all sincerity said, mom, she’s chocolate like my ice cream. Right? And I and that’s exactly what I did. I laughed, right, for a couple of reasons. Like, mom was mortified and she was just like, we don’t teach about race, you know, we don’t teach about race. And that was my prime opportunity. I mean, I didn’t have the language that I have now, but that was my opportunity to tell her, it’s okay, because if she thinks I’m ice cream, then I can tell there there’s no negative conversation that happened. That’s right.

Chrissy Beltran [00:34:12]:

Right? Yes. Because ice cream is some kids normally love.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:34:15]:

And so hopefully, we can build that same relationship. But I but I think, again, that was that opportunity that would make or break the ways that she perceived recognizing difference. And in that case, it was race. Mhmm. Right? And so shunning kids and telling them not to talk about it has created spaces now when you ask to your your previous question, sorry, and it took a minute to get here, about what schools can do. We have to go back and normalize it. Right? Because many teachers were taught, shh, don’t don’t say that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:34:52]:

Yes. Very true. I’ve I’ve seen that happen so many times. Even you know, I have mom friends, you know, friends with kids of similar age to mine, and they’ll they’ll comment. The kids will sometimes comment on people’s appearance or, you know, with all the things that kids notice. They notice everything. They see everything, and sometimes they say it. And whenever you say, shit. I don’t see it. It’s just so they they learn, oh, it’s a bad thing. It must be bad to be that way. So I’m not gonna say anything about that anymore. And and one of my friends said, well, what do I say? I said, well, you can just everybody’s different. Some people are this. Some people are that. Everybody looks different. Everybody has a different shape. Everybody has a different size. Everybody has, you know, everybody’s different. And think about people in our family. Some people are this. Some people are that. You know? And and that’s good. That’s okay. It’s so it’s good to talk about it because it’s real. That’s just just what people are. Everybody’s different and, and they can understand that stuff. And if you say it enough, they start to internalize that, you know. But like you’re saying, it has to become normalized to talk about it. It has to be okay.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:35:55]:

Absolutely. And and the last piece that I’ll add to that piece, so I love your advice around just talk about it, right? Because sometimes now we’re in spaces where we’ve been taught again, fairness means that you get the same amount of airtime that I get And if you don’t, if you get more, it’s not there. So we have to re really shape that notion to truly help kids understand and help ourselves understand. Because I I’ll be quite frank. I love mashed potatoes. And so if we go to a restaurant and your plate has more mashed potatoes, I might be asking about fairness around. No. But really, we have to think about how we can reshape that. And the same thing around getting out of our comfort zone to help our kiddos understand, that it’s okay to have these conversations. And then just as we do with any and everything else, help them understand the dynamic around having these conversations. And so the thing that the thing that I often leave with parents, right, so not early childhood providers as much as I do with parents, particularly parents who like to have a healthy conversation around why it’s important not to teach their kids about race or ethnicity. I like to remind them, these by six months, your your kids are seeing color. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:13]:

Yeah. Mhmm.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:37:14]:

And what is not taught is caught.

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:18]:

Mhmm. That’s that’s a really good way to say it. I like that. I’m gonna use that very soon. I really like that.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:37:27]:

So yes.

Chrissy Beltran [00:37:28]:

Mhmm. Yeah. And I think it is it by four that they make predictions about what people do based on their race? Something along I think it’s four years old, something like that. Yeah. That just really stuck in my mind.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:37:38]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So that’s one of my training points if we walk through each stage of this, right, because they they go from noticing race to then, noticing the stereotypes around how we as a society have really labeled people, right? And so when you think about, again, going back to the social emotional aspect, if you are a community, if you are a person of color or a person who is experiencing, some disability, imagine internalizing how society has really shaped the narrative around you. So if kids understand that, then they look at themselves and wonder. Mhmm. Right? And so how do we we break that notion? Because that’s that internalization piece of it. And then we we see that children at a very young age start to demonstrate that. I mean, we can think about the research, that was done with adults. Right? And so I don’t know if you’re familiar with the doll test that happened. The original one, I think happened and don’t Yeah. I’m I’m not gonna name the year because I can’t remember. But there was original one, in the early nineteen, I think, sixties or July, maybe, around the doll test, and then they redid one. And and Well, the dolls with

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:04]:

the dolls? Is that what you’re talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Like, they did this at the trial as well. Right? If the, didn’t they do it during Brown versus Board of Board of Education where they actually showed the child the doll? Yes. And they asked them which one was better or something along those lines, and the child chose the white doll even though it was a black child. Yes. I remember that. Yeah. It’s pretty

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:39:23]:

And that that has been consistent for years since the very first doll test. Right. And so what we know is the ways in which we were operating for those who said, hey, it wasn’t an issue until we started talking about it. Right. We know it has been an issue. Kids have internalized that they’re bad or ugly or other children have internalized based on skin color who’s bad and ugly. Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:39:49]:

Yeah. I think also about, like like, gender, it’s a very common thing. Oh, he’s a boy. He’s so wild. He’s always hurting himself. He’s a boy. He’s such a boy. Like, you know, first of all, everybody all children hurt themselves. They all do it. My I’ve had to take my daughter to the ER because she hit her head on the fireplace at somebody’s house and wouldn’t stop bleeding. Everybody hurts themselves. And they don’t do there’s nothing they do because they are boys. They don’t just you know, that’s not causing them to do wild things. If you’re really concerned about how wild the child is, you might wanna take a look at that, but it’s not because they’re a boy.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:40:22]:

No. Absolutely. Absolutely. Right? And so and the same thing. I mean, I think we’re certain to get a little more inclusive, but the same thing around this notion of we don’t have a large population of men in early childhood. But think about it. For a very from a very young age, we don’t encourage boys to be nurturing or you’re, you know, when they play with a doll at one point, it was encouraged not to instead of, you know, you’re gonna be a great father, or you’re gonna be a great sibling, or whatever the case is. And so we don’t socialize them in the same ways that we socialize women and then think about it, they become adults, and then they get pregnant, and then you see a pregnant couple and you say you’re gonna be an awesome mom, right? But how many people say you’re gonna be an amazing dad? That

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:13]:

chokes

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:41:14]:

me up. Right? And,

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:14]:

yeah. What do you really say? That chokes me up a little bit. How, like, how sad is that to deprive somebody of that?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:41:22]:

Right? And then they, and then they’re expected to just, when it happens, you’ve already, as as as much we’ve been encouraged and built up, and so, like, we’re ready for this big thing because from a very young age, we were told that we can do this. And then fathers then are not only, you know, oftentimes, micromanaged, but also are learning this new role where they didn’t have that same type of encouragement challenge.

Chrissy Beltran [00:41:51]:

That is so that’s such a good point. Yeah. But, I mean, we we socialize in a certain way, and then we point to that and say, see, this is how they are. But we built it. And then we’re like, well, this is we’re we’re using it to justify the continued action. Yeah. Absolutely. So then you shared about about normalization. Is that, like, the first part of the sorry. We gotta gotten down the lead, but it was really good.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:42:14]:

But as you can see, each step, again, it’s a process piece. Right? And so if I tell I tell, I tell anybody that I’m working with, I still learn every single day. And so this is not a one and done type thing. There’s not a one training that you can go through that now makes you the most equitable

Chrissy Beltran [00:42:33]:

person

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:42:33]:

in the world. Right? Or now that you can check off a box, right. And if you don’t leave spaces with more questions than you walk into, then I wonder about that type of training. But to your larger point, the next is familiar. Right? Right? So, like, know what’s happening. Know what the data looks like for children who come from lower socioeconomic households. Right? And so that you can be intentional with what we are doing. And we’re not saying that we’re only gonna give certain students more, you know, you you know, more, services. But they the services that we do provide should be intentional based on their unique needs. What does the data say about discipline? Right? And so we know black boys get disciplined at a much higher rate. Our itty bitties are being expelled and suspended from school. Right? And so, like, how do we know this data? And so that we can check ourselves, and I mean ourselves being, like, schools or programs to make sure that we’re not perpetuating it. Mhmm. And then how do we begin to standardize some of this? So after we say, okay, we can have these conversations and we don’t get all nervous about it, and then we know what’s happening, and we even took a look at what’s going on here, How do we keep it going? Because what often happens is we have big advocates in spaces, right, who are who have a passion for this work. So they they help support it and push it. But then as they leave, things start to

Chrissy Beltran [00:44:19]:

Yeah. The systems are not in place to where it’s, like, self sustaining and, like, it continues. It’s just because somebody’s been pushing for

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:44:26]:

it. Absolutely. And then the last one is formalizing. Right? And so that gets to that sustainability piece. Like, what are our policies? Right? Have we written some of the nuances that need to be in these policies? Who who reads our policies? Is it just us? Mhmm. Do you, like, do you get parents involved to even look at, you know, how they feel about some things that are impacting their day to day life? Mhmm. So so those are the main, four four, concepts to my equity theory of change.

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:02]:

Alright. Thank you. Childhood education.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:45:04]:

Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:05]:

Excellent. And I feel like that that basic process would apply at other levels as well, not just early childhood. Right?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:45:11]:

Absolutely. It it applies at every level. Right? Because we know, you know, by third grade, what what are they doing? You know what I mean? As it regards to reading and and and things in that nature. So it does absolutely apply.

Chrissy Beltran [00:45:25]:

Yes. So as instructional coaches, we’re kind of in the middle, like I mentioned before. We perceive policies that come from the top and have possibly unexpected consequences for kids. Like, Like, I’ll I’ll give the benefit of the doubt to some of these people who are making the policies and and say that they maybe don’t realize how they’re gonna play out, and maybe they don’t play out with the intention that they were made with. And that maybe that’s too generous in some cases, but I think sometimes that’s probably the truth. So what can we do when we see this happening? Keeping in mind that we’re not administrators, we don’t just get to change stuff, not that they just randomly change things, but sometimes they do. And we’re not teachers, so we don’t have a classroom of our own. We’re kind of in between where we can support in the classroom and see things happening, but we sometimes get to sit at the big table and make help, you know, make have those conversations that make those big decisions. Though, what can we do whenever we see inequity playing out from policies that are that are maybe poorly written or just not a good idea?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:46:21]:

One of the things that I would recommend is be the biggest advocate for disaggregated data, which is data that is broken down by subgroups, rather we’re talking race, rather we’re talking ability, rather we’re talking gender. Mhmm. We need everyone to be an advocate for that, right? And so the thing about policies now is they tend to look neutral. Right? And so we don’t often have policies that says, hey, if you’re of this subpopulation, you’re not gonna get this or this is we’re gonna do this to this group and not that group. Right? And so that’s where that quote, unquote, when I say quote, unquote, because I don’t believe policies are neutral until you can show me the data that you have collected and how it’s impacted communities of color, how it’s impacted, communities who experienced disabilities, how it’s impacted our various communities. I have to you have to see that in numbers. And so that is one of the biggest ways to advocate. Because it then it doesn’t become about you or me, it becomes about the facts of it. And for so long, we’ve made decisions based on data. We don’t need to change now. We need to do it a little differently. And differently is now to break it down to that next step to say, how is this impacting specific subgroups? And when we see that it’s disproportionately impacting specific subgroups, and we have those spaces at the table, then we question these policies and figure out where the change needs to happen while always used to break down data down by,

Chrissy Beltran [00:48:05]:

ethnicity, but, used to break down data down by, ethnicity, but and and often, you know, whether kids were receiving special ed services or GT or, you know, all the different, English language learners. But there are other areas that I know that we didn’t break break them down in ways that maybe there were some impacts that we didn’t see. You know? So, like, looking at them from different dimensions would probably have been really helpful. And you do you do see a lot when you start breaking it down in your we just called subpopulations. When you break them down in your subpop, it was like sometimes it was, like, striking, strikingly obvious that something was up. And when you start with that data, they they just may not even realize what what’s happening. You know? But if you break it down yourself and so so, I guess, if you see something happening, you can go to the data to confirm it, and then you can take that with you to your your big meeting your big table meeting. What are some things that we could do if we see things happening in the classroom? Like, what are like, maybe having a dialogue with the teacher? Because, I mean, that’s what coaches do. We we push and we support, and we push and we support. So what are some things that we could do with a teacher to support them in that area?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:49:15]:

Absolutely. So before we move on to that, if I can make one other point, just wanted to build up of what what you were saying around the data and the importance of breaking it down. Right? Because oftentimes, we think that we’re doing really good. So for instance, if we look at the data and the data says, oh, only twenty percent or ten percent of our students have been expelled in the course of two years. Right? We may think, see, we’re we’re on track. I mean, we wanna, you know, reduce it a little bit, but we’re doing pretty good. But then when you look at that ten percent and you see that eighty percent may be African American boys, then we have a huge red flag that no, we are not doing good. Because why is this happening in one sector? Right. And so I say that because I think it’s important to start to break as much as we can down and not just things that we think that we’re doing poorly on. It’s the things that we think that we’re doing amazing on, we that we wanna confirm that we’re doing amazing across the board for all of our students. So so thanks for letting me highlight that piece of it. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran [00:50:25]:

I’m glad you did.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:50:27]:

And then in classroom, I think coaches can really help in in so many different ways. Microaggressions happen. They start. And, again, I know we’re talking beyond early childhood, but they start an early childhood classroom. Right? And just children don’t have the language to name that that some microaggression and some adults don’t. Because sometimes I’m like, hey, wait wait a minute. Wait a minute. I don’t like how that just felt.

Chrissy Beltran [00:50:57]:

I feel like that.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:50:59]:

You know what I mean? But I I think, one of the things that coaches can help teachers do is name what’s happening and help kiddos name it regardless of what age they are in, right? I know once we get to older kids, it’s not like necessarily put someone on the spot, but even if it’s pulling a child aside and saying, hey, I don’t know how that felt for you, that felt like this for me, and the earlier that we can help children understand how to name that, right, the more effective it is for both kids. One for the child who may not have, that may not have been their actual intention, but it was the impact, and that’s what we go off of is impact, not intention. But also for that kid who it may have been just another strike at, you know, why I don’t really even wanna come to school.

Chrissy Beltran [00:51:48]:

Yeah. Could you define microaggressions so that that people really know what they’re looking at whenever they see it?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:51:54]:

Yes. And so microaggressions look very different, from, different ages and stages. And so in in with our younger kids, it, it can look at it can look like anything from someone saying a comment around, no, that dog doesn’t look like you or, a comment around someone’s appearance. Right? But essentially, what a microaggression is, is it a term that is used, that has, again, it may not have ill intentions, but it has a negative connotation that is comes from a stereotype, typically from marginalized groups. Mhmm. And so what you start to hear from older is people questioning where people are originally from, or, if someone has speaks more than a certain number of language or indicating that they may this or that. I’m I’m trying to do it from a higher level without perpetuating the issue. If you can tell where I’m struggling. I’m like, how do I say it without, you know, I don’t wanna engage in a microaggression. Right? And so, but also just, like, smaller things like, oh, really? Like, for me, I sometimes I get, oh, you’re a doctor?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:53:29]:

Right? And so, I always, not I always, but I’ve learned to to ask that, right? And not in a, disrespectful way, but again, a lot of times people don’t know that they are engaging in a microaggression because of unconscious bias.

Chrissy Beltran [00:53:48]:

Yes.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:53:49]:

Right. And children again, if they weren’t taught it, they caught it and now they brought it into the classroom. And they see a kid that doesn’t resemble them, whether it be within any diverse area, and and then it spills over.

Chrissy Beltran [00:54:06]:

Mhmm. Yes. Yeah, I’ve heard lots of things and, you know, it’s too bad that whenever whenever you said you’re talking about microaggressions in the classroom, I picture an experience I had with a teacher who was making a remark and didn’t even realize, I think, that it was not appropriate. And I saw it happen in action, and I was like, oh my gosh. How am I even gonna I mean, I what am I even gonna say to this? You know? And it sometimes you’re put in that position that it’s such a challenge, and it can be difficult to figure out where do I even start with this person because they’re coming from a framework that doesn’t that didn’t realize that this was not okay. And so it’s like, okay. How do I help them understand why it’s not okay without just preaching? You know? This whole long well, this is the history of that, and this is why it’s a problem, and this is how it affects you. And that’s people you know, they do get turned off whenever you feel whenever they feel like you’re coming from a position, you know, of of, like, overbearing, you know, or, like, over teaching. But it was something important that I mean, they they off they need to be addressed, especially when they’re coming from teachers. But, I mean, certainly children as well.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:55:18]:

No. I absolutely agree. And I and I think there there’s two parts to that piece of it. Right? And so I think one piece is, to seek clarification. Teachers, one of the best ways to interrupt a microaggression. And I say interrupt because it may be scary in that moment to name or identify that for a teacher, but it also could stop that same behavior for next situation.

Chrissy Beltran [00:55:54]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:55:54]:

Right? And so some some ways in which, you know, I think we can do that is just say, hey, can you explain what you meant by that?

Chrissy Beltran [00:56:02]:

Mhmm.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:56:04]:

Or, you know, I think someone could take that in a different way, and I just wanna offer you this other perspective. But I think it’s really, really important for, children, especially young children, for teachers to model that for them. Right? And again, I think that goes back into social emotional skills and so forth so that children then learn how to do that for themselves. And I think that that that creates a safe space, and and and really, fundamental skills that that young children need.

Chrissy Beltran [00:56:42]:

Mhmm. Yes. Absolutely. So if a coach is listening to all of this and they’re thinking, okay, I really want to make this more of, like, my mission and my work. I wanna start focusing on this, and they wanna start advocating for equity at their school. What is the first step that they could take tomorrow?

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:57:02]:

That now that is a dynamite question. What is the first step that they can take tomorrow? I think the first step that they I would suggest that they take is one, to identify who at their school, they have a support system with. Right? And then begin to plan what this could look like. And so that first step of how do we begin to normalize some of the conversations that we need to have here? And and so that that’s one of the first steps that I would offer that they take. If if they don’t feel like they have a strong found a supportive foundation and and the ways in which their current administration is is set up, then I would suggest that they start to look at some of the disparities that they see within their school. Right? So that they can come from, come to the conversation as a solution oriented perspective around, hey. This is one of the things that I noticed, and I’m interested in how we can start to move to close this gap.

Chrissy Beltran [00:58:14]:

I love that answer because it’s not anything I would have even thought to do. Oh, it’s so great.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:58:20]:

And then, of course, the other one. I have to say, just visit doctor lindsay wilson.com.

Chrissy Beltran [00:58:25]:

I was just gonna ask you. I was gonna ask you where people can find you to learn more, so I’m glad that you shared that. Yes.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:58:33]:

Absolutely. Oh, go ahead. No.

Chrissy Beltran [00:58:36]:

I was gonna say thank you. Oh, I’m glad that you shared that.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:58:39]:

Yeah. Absolutely. So doctorlindsay.com is, where you can find find me, and and there are some resources there. And also few other types of, you know, individual trainings as well. And so I recognize that some schools are ready set ready to jump in, and then some coaches and teachers are on their own taking their own path. And so there’s certainly something for everyone there.

Chrissy Beltran [00:59:06]:

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for being here today because I think this was this is so much information, and I’m sure it’s gonna impact some some coaches really positively. I appreciate you sharing it.

Dr. Lindsey Wilson [00:59:17]:

Well, I I appreciate, the opportunity and and just the the great dialogue.

Chrissy Beltran [00:59:25]:

Oh, thank you. Me too. I love it. Alright, coach. I know that was a lot of information, but I think that it was a really great start, and it probably gave you a lot of things to think about when you look at your school and how are things panning out. I love the recommendation for looking at the data, really breaking that down into your subpopulations because sometimes we don’t see the patterns unless they’re made clear for us in numbers. So that’s a really great place to start. But if something just doesn’t sit right with right with you, if something in your gut is telling you that there’s a change that needs to be made, that might be a good time to dig into the data specifically about that idea. So I love her tips, and I hope that you can put some of them into action. If you’re looking for some more resources on related topics, episode 28 is called coaching for equity, and it’s with Elena Aguilar. Episode 43 is anti bias education with Kay Valdez. Episode 52, equity lessons learned for ritual teaching with Tamara Russell. And episode 54 is diversifying your chill your literature with children’s lit worlds. So those are some different places to go if you wanna learn a little bit more about any of the topics that we touched on today. I have a free download for you right now. It’s, actually going to help you define your coaching role. So if you’re looking to kind of redefine your role and embrace equity as one of the things that you really focus on, this might be a good way to do it. You can download the free webinar at buzzingwithmissb.com/webinarwithacapitalw, and it’ll walk you through how to define your role for yourself and with your administration so that you can include the pieces that matter the most to you in your coaching work. And remember, the confident literacy coach course is open right now, but it will close soon. So check out confidentliteracycoach.com to get the course before it closes. In episode 122 next week, we’re going to start a month all about coaching cycles. I’m so excited to dig into it because I know that this is I mean, obviously it’s our bread and butter. I’m not gonna go into, like, step one, step two, step three, because I already did that in episode three. I introduced coaching cycles and I gave you six really clear steps to make them happen. So if you haven’t looked into that one yet, definitely go check that out before next week. But next week, we’re gonna start our month about coaching cycles and dig into different ways of looking at them, different tools that can be helpful, all sorts of important ideas around the coaching cycle topic. So definitely join me next week for that. And until then, happy coaching. Thank you for listening to Buzzing with Miss b, the coaching

Chrissy Beltran [01:02:07]:

podcast. Want more coaching ideas? Check me out at buzzingwithmissb.com and on Instagram at buzzing with miss b. If you love the show, share it with a coach who would love it too, or leave me a review on iTunes. It’s free, and it helps others find this show. Happy coaching.