Coaching Uncertified Teachers with Lindsay Deacon, ep. 275

Coaching Uncertified Teachers with Lindsay Deacon, ep. 275, Instructional Coaching with Ms. B Podcast

Chrissy Beltran [00:00:01]:

Hey, coach, and welcome to this episode all about coaching uncertified teachers with my Lindsay Deacon, Lindsey Deacon. Lindsey is one of my favorite repeat Lindsay Deacons. I love chatting with her. And in this episode, she really gives us some hope about coaching uncertified teachers that is all research based. So we know that we’re actually seeing these results, that they’re actually panning out at schools. Lindsay Deacon is an instructional leadership coach and the coauthor of the EduCoach survival guide book series, highly recommend, committed to achieving real, lasting growth in educators at every level. She is based in Las Vegas, Nevada and regularly collaborates with top authors and researchers in the field, bringing cutting edge coaching insights to the educators and organizations she serves. If you are coaching a new brand new or uncertified teachers this year, I mean, who isn’t? Coaching somebody who’s new. Right? It’s so important to help the teacher get control of their management approach And something that teachers don’t always think about when they’re brand new or uncertified is the procedures and management strategies that they’re going to use as a teacher. Right? We make our little charts of this is the behaviors and these these are our rules and these are our consequences. And then how does that actually work in the classroom? Right? We have to think these things through before we ask kids to do what we’re asking them to do. So I actually created a list of procedures and proactive management strategies and then some handy tools that can help you share these with new and uncertified teachers to get a handle on their management approach. It’s perfect for supporting those brand new teachers in your school. So you can grab that at buzzingwithmissb.com/episode27five. And, it’s a freebie, so you can download it for free. Let’s welcome Lindsay to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast, Lindsay, and thank you so much for being here to talk about this topic that you have been researching. I am so excited to hear what you have to say.

Lindsay Deacon [00:01:48]:

Thank you so much for having me. I feel so lucky every time I talk to you because when I was a newer coach, I was reading your blog.

Chrissy Beltran [00:01:55]:

Oh, that’s so sweet.

Lindsay Deacon [00:01:57]:

I feel like you’re, like, the mother of coaching.

Chrissy Beltran [00:01:59]:

Aw, that’s adorable. I would love to be the mother of coaching. That would be I think you are. I like that. I’m gonna change everything. All my stuff is gonna say the mother of coaching now. I like that. Thank you. Alright. So you have been doing extensive research into coaching uncertified teachers, and so I have so many questions about this. What is the typical background of an uncertified teacher, and why are we seeing an uptick in uncertified teachers being placed in classrooms?

Lindsay Deacon [00:02:27]:

Well, first of all, I don’t think there is a typical background. Okay. When we just think of career changers in general, like, you might say, like, oh, they were in the military or they were corporate. But

Chrissy Beltran [00:02:36]:

Mhmm.

Lindsay Deacon [00:02:36]:

In my experience, I have been, coaching and mentoring folks who are new to the field in an all cert program or in uncertified, programs. And I have, like, a former crime scene investigator, a former manager at Wendy’s, somebody who worked in the film industry in LA. Right? Like, everybody comes from another place, which I think is probably one of the most fascinating things that I learned from them right from the beginning. But then also, like, why is this happening? Well, because frankly, I mean, I don’t think the data has lied for years. We knew that we were gonna have an aging population who’s retiring, and we don’t have enough people going into the profession of teaching to begin with. And so now we’re at this place where essentially, like, I don’t I hate to say it like this, but we’ve got a sinking ship, and we have to plug the holes. And so there is kind of an argument of, we need warm bodies. But at the same time, I think a more positive way to look at it is we have some really incredibly special people out there who have had other careers and other experience, and so they want to contribute to the field of education and be teachers. And I think we should really honor that rather than just sort of assume that they don’t have experience. Does that make sense?

Chrissy Beltran [00:03:52]:

Sure. Yeah. So I I personally would I have always distinguished between, like, alternative certification and uncertified. Yeah. Because alternative certification, you are required to go through, you know, a certain program, and then you also I mean, generally, they can be really short, but they’re they do exist. Right? Then then you have, like, you know, certain classroom hours where you have to observe, you know, so you know they spent time in a school at some point. Yeah. And so, like, are do you see a difference between those two?

Lindsay Deacon [00:04:20]:

I don’t.

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:20]:

Not really. I really don’t.

Lindsay Deacon [00:04:23]:

Yeah. I real and that’s just my single story, but I think even when I’m really looking a lot of the research, the idea is really that, you know, you’re you’re basically, like, handing the keys to an airplane to somebody who has never flown an airplane. And, you know, even when you talk about, like, traditional teacher prep programs, you know, like, you and I I’m assuming you and I were in similar programs where we had to complete a certain amount of hours, like, alongside

Chrissy Beltran [00:04:51]:

a

Lindsay Deacon [00:04:51]:

mentor teacher, you know, in a in sort of a safe structured environment. But at this point, uncertified teachers and all certified teachers are often just, like, handed the keys to their classroom. They walk in, and it’s like, okay. Here you go. Trial by fire.

Chrissy Beltran [00:05:05]:

You know, having gone through a traditional teacher certification program, I mean, I did learn a lot of pedagogy and, like, content. I learned a lot of content for my degree. But as far as, like, walking into the classroom, I sort of felt that way anyway because I remember walking in and being like, I’d so now I do kinda like when you’re in the hospital and they hand you your baby, and they’re like, okay. We’re gonna check you out today. And you’re like, no. That can’t be right because I still don’t know what I’m doing. You know? Yeah. And I

Lindsay Deacon [00:05:31]:

go back and I think through those sort of stories to myself frequently because I remember when I got the keys to my first classroom, I had gone through a traditional teacher program and I called my aunt who was an experienced teacher and she was, you know, down the street. I said, will you just come to my classroom? I have no idea what I’m doing because I felt completely unprepared.

Chrissy Beltran [00:05:49]:

Yeah. Yes.

Lindsay Deacon [00:05:50]:

So

Chrissy Beltran [00:05:51]:

Yeah. We just way I would

Lindsay Deacon [00:05:52]:

also wanted to normalize that we feel unprepared regardless of how much training we get.

Chrissy Beltran [00:05:57]:

For sure. Yeah. I did I did have a like, I still go back to things that I learned in college, and I can I now have the experience to evaluate them and say, yes? That was good. This was not so good. This was a piece of the puzzle, but not all of the puzzle. Yes. And so that’s that was helpful to me, but I think what I really learned a lot in college, it was the content. And so then whenever I taught science, I knew a lot about, you know Mhmm. Geology and, you know, because you have to take so many variety of classes. So that’s really what I I feel like I got out of it more than the pedagogy. Mhmm. So then what needs do you are you seeing more people who like, you’re talking about second careers? Because I know a lot of alternative certification people who went through a college program, got a degree in something else, and then decided to be certified immediately. So they had no other career. Yep. I do have many

Lindsay Deacon [00:06:45]:

of those as well.

Chrissy Beltran [00:06:46]:

Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Lindsay Deacon [00:06:47]:

That’s why I say they come from

Chrissy Beltran [00:06:49]:

all levels. Mix bag.

Lindsay Deacon [00:06:50]:

Mhmm. All levels of experience, all ages. Yeah. And so it really just is, there’s no, like, one kind of person. I think Yeah. Is uncertified.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:02]:

Yeah. You can’t make a generalization because they’re just from all over the place. Okay.

Lindsay Deacon [00:07:05]:

So what make generalizations based on who went through traditional teacher prep programs.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:10]:

Okay.

Lindsay Deacon [00:07:11]:

Because the data reflects that it’s traditionally white women who were Oh, interesting. Who’ve gone through the field or through traditional teacher prep programs, and that’s who, like, ended up in the field. And so the really, the idea behind, like, all cert or uncertified teachers is now it’s opened the door to a lot of other types of people who hadn’t originally necessarily had, like, the same privileges or even, like you know, I mean, I grew up in a family of educators. That’s just like what women did. You know? So it just seemed like a natural pathway. So it’s really opened the doors to a lot of other people who maybe wouldn’t have had opportunities before.

Chrissy Beltran [00:07:47]:

That is such an interesting point because it it’s sometimes surprising me. I whenever I hear these facts and I read the research about how so many kids are not taught by a person of color, you know, ever or or not until they’re, like, in high school. Maybe they have a coach or something. You know? And so then it’s, like, one person, you know, out of their whole experience. And that is so because where I live, you know, I live in El Paso, Texas. Yeah. And the population here is over 80% Latine, and then the teacher population reflects that because we have a university here in the city. And so Mhmm. It’s a commuter college. It’s a it’s a university, but people live at home. They drive to work. They drive to school, and then they drive back home. You know? So it’s, like, it’s made it available to people. I mean, we’re not a very wealthy city in general, but it’s made it available to people here. I mean, also, it’s, like, crazy affordable compared to so many other places. And so, I mean, it’s wild. I’m like, sorry, kids. This is I mean, you don’t you’re not gonna have a lot of options because this is this is what we’re you know? This is somewhere you can afford to pay off. You know? Perfect. So it’s it’s so interesting. It’s such a good point, that it would open up. In in general, a lot of kids are not having teachers who are the varied backgrounds, and that is so interesting. Mhmm. So then in terms of specific needs, what what needs do uncertified teachers have when they start out in their own classroom? Is there anything really striking that you’re noticing?

Lindsay Deacon [00:09:09]:

Yeah. I think a lot of the research points to two very specific areas of need. And the first is they just have limited awareness of, like, pedagogy in general.

Chrissy Beltran [00:09:18]:

Right.

Lindsay Deacon [00:09:19]:

You know, they don’t really understand, like, the mechanics of teaching, and the, like, the technical pieces that go into it. And, you know so, like, if you throw out a term like, oh, it’s Vigozzi or Piaget. Like, we all had that in a teacher prep program. Even though that may not seem, like, immediately relevant in your day to day work, we still had exposure to bigger concepts in terms of, like, what pedagogy means. So there’s that limited awareness, but then also there’s this kind of shook me a little bit that, we assume that a lot of them have content expertise because they’ve maybe they’ve engaged somewhere else. Right? Maybe they were a mechanical engineer or, you know, just they had maybe other professional jobs. Even if they’re brand new, as a teacher, you know, everybody’s had to work somewhere along the lines. But there’s a really big misunderstanding between, like, having content expertise and then being able to break that down and share that with students, which I think for those of us who are educators, that’s not surprising. But a lot of folks who already have like, oh, well, I was a mechanic. I’m gonna be able to teach how to be a mechanic or or the general concepts of mechanic, you know, to students that just doesn’t translate. So Yeah. There’s those two big pieces.

Chrissy Beltran [00:10:32]:

Yeah. That makes sense. Even, like, I working in elementary school where teachers are required to teach all content areas because they’re, you know, self contained classroom, you see strong like, maybe a strength in one area and, like, very lack of background knowledge in other areas. Yeah. And that’s why like, I remember I worked with a teacher when I was a brand new teacher, and she and I I felt comfortable teaching fourth grade science. Like, I was fine with that. I felt like I learned a lot in high school and college, and and I was okay. But she would have to take home the videos from, like, the science resource. She would take them home every week and watch them to prepare for what was coming next week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, those have to be the most boring Yeah. I mean, it wasn’t, like, even Bill Nye. Right? It was, like, this really dry thing. And so I was just so impressed that she did that. You know? Like, that was something she knew she needed in order to be able to teach that content, and so she was like, these are tools that I have, so I watched I was like, there are videos? What? Like, she they didn’t even Yeah. You know? And it was just it was so interesting. So, like, providing resources like that for our teachers in those specific areas that that they feel a weakness would be so important.

Lindsay Deacon [00:11:38]:

Yeah. Which I think then also translates to, like, a a lack of confidence because Sure. Folks get into the classroom and, you know, a lot of it I mean, again, it’s just trial by error. Like, that’s where folks default automatically. And I know I did that.

Chrissy Beltran [00:11:55]:

Yeah. For it’s my story.

Lindsay Deacon [00:11:56]:

But but when that is the simply the default and you don’t have anybody guiding you to a better practice, then we have a problem because it’s not practicing in a program where you have the ability to fail and, you know, students are still engaged with, like, a high quality teacher. In this case, like, the students are there in front of you every day, and that’s a lot of pressure. So it, I think, also results in a lot of anxiety and, you know, sort of that Pygmalion effect of, like, I don’t think I’m doing well, and I’m not doing well, and I don’t think I’m doing well, and it just spirals down.

Chrissy Beltran [00:12:33]:

So then how can an instructional coach support a teacher who is not certified and has really no background in the classroom at the same time as they’re supporting members of their staff who have, like, wildly different needs? Like, you were sitting at a PLC meeting, you know, with maybe you’ve got six teachers there, and one of them is brand new and has never set foot in the classroom until that week, and then one of them has been teaching twenty five years. You know, what does that look like?

Lindsay Deacon [00:12:55]:

Yeah. I mean, that’s a great question. So I’m gonna kinda touch on what the research says so far from, like, what I can suss out is that, there are a lot of different, perceptions. And the first one that I think I had was, well, these folks need to know how to enter attendance. They need to know how to request a sub. It’s like the day to day workings of being a teacher. And often I think that’s what we as coaches sort of default into. Like, we need to help them. I need to be a helper. But actually what, the the more, like, the long term studies of uncertified and alt certified teachers, what they said, like, kept them, retained them in the profession was not that. It was rigorous, deep coaching, feeling like they really were understanding more of the pedagogy. And so when you’re talking about like, well, then how do I support somebody who has none of that? It’s really truly offering structured opportunities for them to learn more deeply about the profession of being a teacher and how is that going to translate with your students. So, a lot of the research suggests that you have a mentor on-site. Somebody you can be like, how do I how do I enter sub? Right? How do I oh, no. The projector broke. Whatever that may be. But then also the coach truly focuses on the coaching work. So you really have two different people. So I would say a coach probably needs to, like, help them identify who’s the mentor, who can I go to when I have these sort of technical questions, and who do I go to for my knowledge building?

Chrissy Beltran [00:14:30]:

Yeah. I completely agree with that. As as a coach with, new teachers, and they they had gone through different either either an alternate we didn’t have anybody who was uncertified. They were either alternative but at this time, they were either alternatively certified or certified through a regular program. But either way, they had to pass. You know? So they, they would assign me as the coach to be the men like, they called me the mentor because I would log all the hours and instruction and all those things. Yep. But then there was, like, a buddy see, like, a mentor teacher who they would go to for those logistical type things or, like, remind me when it’s time to do grades and sit with me and help me put my grades in and all that kinda stuff. Honestly, I didn’t even have access to most of that stuff as the coach because I didn’t have a classroom. Right? Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So it made a lot more sense because I was able to take time during the school day to go and model, go and observe, provide the feedback, get them to visit, coordinate visits with other classrooms, and things like that. So I I love splitting it up that way.

Lindsay Deacon [00:15:27]:

I mean, I do think too there is a lot of value in in some some of that helper role because that’s how you build a relationship. Right? That’s how they know they can trust you. And so I would never say, like, if somebody came to you and said help, like, I I

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:38]:

I don’t have to do that

Lindsay Deacon [00:15:40]:

math testing. Like, you wouldn’t be like, well, that’s your mentors. You know?

Chrissy Beltran [00:15:44]:

Of course.

Lindsay Deacon [00:15:45]:

It’s it’s more just being very mindful and aware of what coaching is and what the real purpose is because otherwise, we just get sucked into that helper role, and long term, that’s not gonna help anybody. It’s just helping them survive.

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:00]:

That’s exactly right. That’s actually what the book that I’m writing is a part of part of it is about. Yeah. It’s it’s, it’s called expand your coaching toolbox, and it talks about we do have relationship building coaching strategies that we use, but the purpose isn’t to stay there. You’re trying to leverage those into working at a more high impact with that teacher. Right? So you’re taking that strategy, and you’re like, okay. Yes. I’m serving as a sounding board today. I’m serving you know, I’m doing some a little tech support today because you need it, but I’m going to say, can I come by and see this lesson? Can I you know, oh, what are you guys working on? Let me say you’re, like, using it to move into classroom support because that’s where the high impact learning actually takes place for the teacher.

Lindsay Deacon [00:16:39]:

Mhmm. Absolutely.

Chrissy Beltran [00:16:40]:

So okay. So one question I have, have you come across anything about, like, alignment in terms of align so I’m thinking about, like, certain teams that I’ve worked with. Like, some some schools are very, like, very structured in their lesson planning. They plan together, and then the plans that they’re going to do, they you know, they take them back to the classroom, and they’re maybe not the same day, exact same place or whatever, but they know what the plan is for the next two weeks. So is that supportive of the new teacher of of the, you know, uncertified teachers? Is the alignment less valuable than just the planning itself? Is that what’s valuable? Or, you know, is it helpful if I’m in my classroom and I’m like, oh, we’re gonna do this lesson today, and I just realized I have no idea what this is supposed to look like. And I can run next door, and they just did this lesson yesterday, so I can ask about that or I could visit and see. Is that supportive, or have you seen anything about that?

Lindsay Deacon [00:17:28]:

Well, I feel like there is just so much, literature about the importance of modeling. So seeing seeing a practice. Right? So, you know, if a coach says, you know, that your your partner, your teacher next door, or somebody down the hall is gonna be modeling this practice. I want you to go see it. I think there’s a lot of value in that, and we as coaches can support that work in a lot of ways. Yeah. I think also what I’ve seen is just in terms of, like, when a coach attends a PLC, you have to understand that if you’re looking at data, for instance Mhmm.

Chrissy Beltran [00:18:02]:

That,

Lindsay Deacon [00:18:03]:

learning about the mechanics of assessment is not something they’ve traditionally been exposed to. So we’re just handing folks, like, you know, a spreadsheet that says, like, yeah, this kid failed, but then they don’t know what to do the next day.

Chrissy Beltran [00:18:14]:

So really, like, how the test is structured and, like, an understanding of of the assessment itself takes time too. Yeah. I feel like that’s something you have to get good at.

Lindsay Deacon [00:18:23]:

Absolutely. And I I think that’s the thing is it’s, you know, just when I talk with leaders about sometimes, like, the these uncertified teachers in their buildings. They have an urgency that they’re like, I need to see results. And that’s kind of not how it works. You know? Like, it’s a it’s a very sophisticated profession that takes a lot of time to become a master teacher. Right? And so we as coaches have to support that work, but we also have to be realistic and patient about how much somebody can absorb in one meeting or session or day. Right? And, you know, and timing matters too. So I don’t know that I haven’t necessarily a good answer about alignment, but I I think there is a lot of value in just being very mindful to make sure that, like, we can learn from our colleagues. And then also, like, somebody just isn’t off doing their own thing because Right. That’s just they’re, again, just, like, planning day to

Chrissy Beltran [00:19:20]:

day. Yes. Yeah. And I think that I mean, if I can extrapolate from that, then it seems like alignment would be supportive just because when your team is, like, in the same place and they’re working on the same things with kids that’s bound to be supportive for the person who’s like, oh my god. I have never taught this specific thing before. I have no idea what management could look like. We’re doing this activity. How does this how do you divide the kids up? All those even just, like, functional type of things that you think through as a teacher with a lot of experience that a new teacher goes, okay. Sure. Sure. I’ll do that. I’ll do that. And then they start doing it in the classroom, and they realize, I don’t actually know how to do that, like, how to make that happen. Even just very basic thing, like, how are we gonna find partners? Okay. The the newer teacher will sit there and go, you and you. You and you. You and you. Right? And it’s like a total time suck, and it just creates chaos. And so little things like that that sometimes you don’t spell out when you’re lesson planning together. If they can see certain things in their colleagues’ rooms because you’ve built like a team Yeah. I would imagine that would be really supportive. And if you have similar lesson plans, you know?

Lindsay Deacon [00:20:20]:

Yeah. But I’m gonna throw a wrench in it right now because I’ve had a conversation with a teacher this week who came from higher ed. Okay. And so, again, like, has really deep content expertise. Mhmm. And I’ve been working with this teacher all year, and it was kind of like one of our closing observations and closing conversations because the school year is almost over.

Chrissy Beltran [00:20:39]:

Mhmm.

Lindsay Deacon [00:20:39]:

And one of the things that came up in our conversation was, that they meet with their PLC team regularly with it’s high school, meeting, you know, with other colleagues who are teaching the same class, the same content. And, when it came to addressing one of the standards or a couple of the standards, the other teachers wanted to just, I mean, I I’m gonna say just do a poster project. And the teacher I’m working with said, well, they need to write. They need they need to be writing essays. They need, you know, they need to be engaged. Like, I know that they’re gonna need to address a more rigorous content later.

Chrissy Beltran [00:21:14]:

Yeah.

Lindsay Deacon [00:21:14]:

And the teacher said to their colleagues, do you mind if I try to do something different? And they said, sure. Okay. Fine. Right? So in theory, they’re working on the same standards or the same essential questions. But what I saw from this person who is new new Right. To the field, was absolutely more rigorous, more informed, and really the mindset was very different because the teacher said that they were really struggling with the fact that their, you know, their experienced veteran colleagues were saying things like, well, that’s too hard for the kids. The kids are never gonna be able to do that. And so I think navigating the ecosystem and realizing that, like, even though they may be new or novice, that doesn’t mean that Yeah. They need to be spoon fed everything. Like, that’s really like, I just thought that was so refreshing. Like and I was like, trust your gut. You keep doing what you’re doing.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:07]:

Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. That’s a good point. I think about being responsive, maybe. Right? So it’s more about responding to what you see in each individual teacher. And then in those meetings, like, whatever the t whatever any teacher’s strengths are, you would hopefully use them to pull the like, move the team forward. Right? So if that’s a strength that this person is bringing regardless of their years of experience I mean, obviously, they have years of experience at teaching somebody. It’s just maybe not, you know, public educate or, like, smaller people. Yeah. If they’re coming from higher ed.

Lindsay Deacon [00:22:38]:

Showed a difference. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:40]:

It

Lindsay Deacon [00:22:40]:

showed, overall, a lot of improvement and Yeah. The other classes did not. And Yeah. So then it then it’s kind of like an awkward conversation of, like, okay. Well, now how do we surface that so that there’s not animosity? Right? And also, like, valuing Mhmm. That everybody brings something important to the table.

Chrissy Beltran [00:22:59]:

Yes. Yeah. And using that as as leverage, you know, for your team because if you have somebody with the strength, that’s whenever that person can say you could say, well, can you share a little bit about what you did? You know? Yeah. And that’s you know, over time, hopefully, they can become like, we can find a place for them. And that’s the thing, I think, is is finding the right support systems for what they need and then finding the place for them if they’re grow if they’re really excelling somewhere, giving them those opportunities just like you do with everybody else. Right? Absolutely.

Lindsay Deacon [00:23:26]:

And that’s what teachers are doing with their students. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:29]:

Yes. Exactly.

Lindsay Deacon [00:23:30]:

That, we’re differentiating our support, for adults, which is different.

Chrissy Beltran [00:23:36]:

Yeah. So then what kinds of things can a school or a district do? Because districts also have, like, new teacher programs. And so what kinds of things can they do to provide support to uncertified teachers at the beginning of the school year? Like, kind of you know, oftentimes, they have to come in a week or two early, or throughout the school year, you know, over time. What can that look like?

Lindsay Deacon [00:23:55]:

Yeah. Well, I think it’s generally thinks that schools are not set up to provide or districts are set up to provide. No.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:01]:

But I

Lindsay Deacon [00:24:01]:

can tell you what the research says.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:03]:

What we should be doing.

Lindsay Deacon [00:24:07]:

Providing them a lot of structured time to get formal professional learning on pedagogy, assessment, working directly with a coach, you know, which it’s a it’s a time investment. And that is difficult because we’re just again, we’re hiring these folks because we need more bodies in the classroom. So then to say, oh, can you also get a sub is very challenging. So I think what can systems do? Well, the systems already know what to do. It’s just do they have the capacity to do that. And so I think it I don’t have an answer other than, like, what we just know already to be true.

Chrissy Beltran [00:24:50]:

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Some districts are better equipped to do that for sure. I know that whenever we have new teachers in the district that I used to work for Yeah. They would have they would have to come, I think, two weeks early, at least a week early, and do, like, a new teacher orientation. Some of it was more logistics. Some of it was HR and all that stuff. But some of it was very basic, like classroom management, things like that. And, it was helpful to some, but, again, it wasn’t like I feel like it’s more helpful when you’re working with the people at your school because the district is such a big umbrella, and you’re talking all grades. And, you know, it’s it’s kind of it’s not like it’s not as as relevant sometimes or as rigorous as it could be because it’s just like this big umbrella of catch all of, well, they generally need this and they generally need that. You know? Mhmm. But working alongside a coach or a mentor teacher is gonna be, I think, far more impactful.

Lindsay Deacon [00:25:42]:

Yeah. And one thing, I it’s this is not my novel idea, but I do recommend to leaders in schools is, absolutely limit what extra sort of extracurricular activities or meetings that teachers are engaged in. Like, it’s okay for them to not be on a committee, you know, and I think it’s difficult because in a lot of teacher, like, formal teacher observations, like the state evaluations, it says, like, this teacher participates in leadership and, you know, like Right. All of those other sort of extraneous pieces. But if we want them to really improve on the business of teaching, that needs to be the focus. So it’s okay to say you don’t have to go to the staff meeting or even better. You know what? Swap that staff meeting to work with the coach. Mhmm. Right? Or swap that, you know, committee meeting so that you can attend this more formal meeting

Chrissy Beltran [00:26:35]:

or something. Yes.

Lindsay Deacon [00:26:36]:

Right? But I think the expectation that they do it all, and I personally wish that my principal when I was a new teacher Yep.

Chrissy Beltran [00:26:44]:

Had some You know what?

Lindsay Deacon [00:26:45]:

Maybe you have do you have the capacity to coach volleyball and soccer and do the yearbook? You know, like, all like, because I wanted to contribute and I wanted to, you know, be a part of the school, but I think I needed somebody more experienced to say, like, Lindsay, like, slow it down. Yep. You’re already doing a lot. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:27:03]:

Yes. I I was thinking the same exact thing. As a new teacher, I said yes to everything, basically. Yeah. And so and my colleagues were on, like, boards and, you know, they were the local reading council and all this, and I just did every I was like, okay. Yeah. I’ll be on this. Oh, you need a PTA person? Okay. You know? You need a sponsor for that? Okay. And I did everything, and I wish that I hadn’t because I really just needed to get better at teaching. Yeah. But those are

Lindsay Deacon [00:27:26]:

I think those are the small things that make us think that we’re doing a good job. Right? Because I’m like, oh, okay. Like, I’m I’m a contributing member of my school community. So instead of it sort of just being like, oh, well, I need to have better boundaries, it needs to be more formalized by leaders. Like, you are new to our school, you know, like, you know, you’re working on your certification potentially, whatever it is. Like, these are the things I want you to focus on because that’s what’s important right now. And in five years, I would love it if you’re gonna mentor folks or lead these meetings or, you know, other things, but I just really think it’s important to have it more formalized. Like, this is what we do in order to support retention, because we just know, like, at the end of the day, their brains are toast. They’re tired.

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:16]:

Yes.

Lindsay Deacon [00:28:16]:

You know? And they have so much that they’re just processing because everything is new.

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:22]:

And trying to figure out for the next day because they haven’t done it before. So you’re looking at your lesson plans. And like I said before, even the smallest thing is, like, you have to think about it. There’s no, like, routines. You know, you your brain doesn’t just go, oh, I can do this. I’ve done this a million times. I could do it in my sleep. It goes, oh, how do I start that? You know, what is that gonna look like? I have to sit here with the darn manipulatives and learn how to do long division again.

Lindsay Deacon [00:28:44]:

And, actually so I will say too that I’ve read a lot about really the importance of for coaches to model a practice, or role play with teachers

Chrissy Beltran [00:28:54]:

Yes.

Lindsay Deacon [00:28:54]:

To basically get those practice opportunities ahead of time to, like, sit down and say, okay. You’re gonna teach this tomorrow. You know, kinda like where gym night has the checklist of different practices. Right?

Chrissy Beltran [00:29:03]:

Mhmm.

Lindsay Deacon [00:29:03]:

Like, sit down, develop your checklist. What does this look like? Now I’m gonna be the student. You’re gonna be teacher. Let’s let’s walk through this right now.

Chrissy Beltran [00:29:09]:

Yeah.

Lindsay Deacon [00:29:10]:

And how that is a really impactful move that coaches can take. And it might not seem that big of a deal, but that’s really what these folks need. I mean, any teacher needs it.

Chrissy Beltran [00:29:21]:

Everybody needs it. I mean, I’m telling you every year, I had to get out the manipulatives to practice long division again. Every year, I taught it for, like, ten years. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I have one quick question, and I I don’t know if you have an answer to this or not, but I was thinking about it. Is there any data that shows, like, proficiency levels and how long it takes maybe a new teacher to reach a certain level versus an uncertified like, a teacher that’s certified through, like, a normal like, a regular program versus somebody who’s not, or I don’t know if there’s anything about that or not. It sounds seems like it’s not because you’re getting a pen. So

Lindsay Deacon [00:29:56]:

Writing it down. But, you know, I will say too that, I have some some, uncertified folks who I have been coaching for a year and a half now. Mhmm. And I’m I mean, honestly, like, there’s some of some of them, the first time I went to a classroom, I was like, okay. Pick up just it’s okay, Lindsay. You know, just, like, pick one thing. It’s, you know, like Yeah. Sure. Feeling like this is out. And then this year, at this point, they have moved to highly accomplished on their formal evaluation in many areas.

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:31]:

Okay.

Lindsay Deacon [00:30:31]:

And so I don’t know that I like, I haven’t run across anything specifically on, like, who may meet proficiency faster or but I will say that at the same time, I think it is absolutely possible for some of these new folks, if anybody of any walk of life to be able to meet proficiency as well as be an accomplished teacher quickly with the appropriate support.

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:56]:

Right?

Lindsay Deacon [00:30:56]:

Yeah. With the right coordinated intentional support.

Chrissy Beltran [00:30:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that, like, you’re talking about funding and staffing, that’s where a lot of times we’re falling short because we’ve got one coach for 60 teachers and then a big handful of them need more intensive support, and that’s where we’re we’re missing the mark. Yeah.

Lindsay Deacon [00:31:15]:

Well, that’s where I think coaches can save a lot of time is if there is, like, okay. Your your sort of day to day mentor for how to enter this up,

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:23]:

all those little

Lindsay Deacon [00:31:24]:

pieces. Like, here’s who I want you to go to for that. And I think that that is really important because it also honors the expertise of somebody else in your building even if they’re not a coach. And then the coach can then focus on the pedagogy or pedagogical pieces that

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:38]:

you need

Lindsay Deacon [00:31:38]:

to be addressed with the teacher, and, it’s just more clear. But, again, like, it’s all about intention. It’s all about your, you know, your planning and not just like, like, I’m gonna do this in the moment because

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:49]:

I think

Lindsay Deacon [00:31:50]:

that is just not it’s not a coordinated effort.

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:53]:

Yeah. Thank you so much. This was so interesting. Where can people this

Lindsay Deacon [00:31:57]:

for hours with you.

Chrissy Beltran [00:31:58]:

I oh, yeah. Well, we maybe we should do it again. Once you maybe after you write the book, you can come back and we can talk about, you know, how it’s gone and and what your, like, further findings were. So where can people find you if they wanna keep learning, and where is your book gonna be out eventually and when?

Lindsay Deacon [00:32:12]:

We are we don’t have a title yet. Well, I think there’s a working title, like, The Real World to the Real Classroom, but, it’s through it’ll be through Rutledge, published, I think, next ’27.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:24]:

And,

Lindsay Deacon [00:32:25]:

where can they find me? Just w w wthethe wwweducoachsurvivalguide.com. You know? But, like, yeah, we’re on Instagram. Like, Angela and I, we’re, like, the EduCoach survival gals.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:38]:

Perfect. Thank you so much for being here today.

Lindsay Deacon [00:32:40]:

Thank you.

Chrissy Beltran [00:32:43]:

Alright, coach. I hope that that gives you some hope about working with your uncertified teachers. Lindsay has seen some profound improvements in really targeting specific skills with teachers, building in that practice, and believing that we can see a difference in the classroom by providing them with appropriate support. So I hope that that follows you in through your work throughout your work with teachers who are uncertified, new, or really anybody because there are varied needs in our schools regardless of how many years our teachers have taught. Next week, we are digging into even more hot topics in education. So I can’t wait to share that episode with you. And until then, happy coaching!