Instructional Coaching for Engagement with Gretchen Bridgers, ep. 181

Instructional Coaching for Engagement with Gretchen Bridgers, ep. 181, Instructional Coaching with Ms. B Podcast

Chrissy Beltran  00:05

Hey coach, and welcome to episode 181 of instructional coaching with Miss B, we’re talking about instructional coaching for engagement with my guest, Gretchen Bridgers. Before we jump into the episode, I want to remind you about my mini coaching cycles CrashCourse. If you are trying to support teachers and engagement, the best way is to get into those classrooms and support them in the space that they are going to be trying to create student engagement. And the coaching cycle is a great way you can do this, if you head to buzzingwithmsb.com/cycles, you can actually grab my mini coaching cycles crash course it’ll go straight to your inbox and teach you in just five easy steps how you can use a coaching cycle. And it’s not complicated, I promise I’m going to simplify it for you and it’s going to give you everything you need to get started. You can also grab my classroom observation forms that have some forms specifically to help you focus on engagement. So as you’re conducting that coaching cycle, you can focus and actually give teachers information about how engagement is working in their classrooms, and have those reflective conversations and you can grab those classroom observation forums, at buzzingwithmsb.com/cycles. And you can just head to my shop and grab them there. So today we’re going to talk to Gretchen because we are continuing our continuing our series, I believe we’re actually wrapping up our series on coaching for engagement. So so far, we have talked a little bit about what differentiation can look like as an engagement support, I shared some of my favorite engagement strategies that you can use with teachers to help support cognitive engagement. And today we’re going to talk about what do coaches actually do to support engagement in classrooms, because sometimes we do a whole lot of PD and not a whole lot of support. So I’m really looking forward to talking to Gretchen about this topic today. I know this is a section of her new book that has come out that you’re going to love. So let’s welcome Gretchen to the podcast. Welcome Gretchen. Oh,

Gretchen Bridgers  01:52

hi. I’m so glad to be here. I love chatting with you. It’s been a long time that we got to sit face to face and chat. So I’m really looking forward to today.

Chrissy Beltran  02:02

Yes, great. Me too. I would love to hear about a few things to kind of introduce yourself. I know that probably many people who listen to the podcast have met you before here, because you’ve been on a couple of episodes previously. But just in case, who do you help? And how do you spend most of your time and energy at work?

Gretchen Bridgers  02:17

Okay, so I generally work with teacher coaches, I didn’t realize you could coach coaches that kind of just developed over time, and has been really fun as I learned how to take how they coach a teacher and utilize those same skills to then coach coaches. And it has been really fun, the best part of this job is that I can work from home and remotely help everyone across the US, which is fantastic. I’ve got little ones at home. So this allows me to be present in their classrooms and help out with all the different books studies that are going on in there or field trips or whatever. But I can still help in other classrooms too. So it’s been a joy. But I have found that there are certain things that provide me the energy in order to do my job well. And I have to start my day with this two mile run. And I’ve got to tell you, I hate running no part of it brings me joy. But it wakes up the body and wakes up the brain. And then when I can sit and work because I only have like two and a half hours to really crank stuff out before my son gets home from preschool. It’s like I’ve got to be super creative. I’ve got to be like I can hone in on the most essential tasks, get them done, support these coaches so that I can go back into mom mode before in the evening, coming back and working with them again. And so it’s just been a really weird chapter of balancing all the things. And I know everyone felt that in COVID. It’s like, which hat am I wearing today? And at this hour, and how do I figure it out. But I’ve really learned that exercise is the way that I have to start. And so now I’m telling coaches, before you start PD, and before teachers even start teaching part of the warmup is literally the body and you don’t have to go for the two mile run. But we’ve got to just move and stretch and allow our bodies and our brains to start connecting so that when we are learning, we actually have time to process it. We can store it and we can reference it later. So it’s just been a really big aha for me as I’ve learned how to work remotely.

Chrissy Beltran  04:12

I love that. Yeah. And then it has lots of implications for the classroom and for engagement, right, though? Yes.

Gretchen Bridgers  04:18

Which is so perfect for our topic today. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran  04:21

So then Okay, the other question I want to know, it’s just a little fun question. It’s who is your favorite musical artist band, you know, any musician of all time.

Gretchen Bridgers  04:29

You’ll have to tell me if you even know who this is. Okay. It’s a country band, Rascal Flatts.

Chrissy Beltran  04:36

I know they are. But I met okay. The country person.

Gretchen Bridgers  04:40

I live in the south. I live in the Carolinas and so countries just you know, everywhere all the time. And I could listen to them sing a phonebook, like it doesn’t even matter. Just sing away. And I just love them. And I think that’s what happens when folks say Who’s your favorite person or who do you love to listen to is someone that it doesn’t even matter? A song. It’s just like you love and you connect to that. So that would be my answer. I will be shocked if any of your listeners I’m like, oh, yeah, me too. But I’m embracing my weirdness.

Chrissy Beltran  05:11

I don’t think I’ve been I think it’s pretty a lot of people know who they are. And listen, granted, I grew up in Dallas. And so I mean, I was there whenever country was like, hitting the mainstream. And yeah, it was definitely the boot. scootin Boogie days. Whenever I was a kid, I can still remember watching a talent show performance to that song. So Oh, my good, buddy. So yeah, that’s, but I was I’ve never been a country person, myself, and certainly not modern country is not my thing at all. Sounds funny, but I’m sure that you’ve got a lot of fans in the audience who will agree with you? I hope so. So, okay, so I want to talk a little bit about, you’ve got this book, right that you’ve written, and it’s got this four part sequence to growing schools. And I would love that you could share a little bit about that. And then we can kind of dig into the engagement piece of that. Absolutely.

Gretchen Bridgers  05:56

So this book is called always a lessons, teacher essentials for classroom and career success. And I didn’t realize I was gonna write it, I never really thought about trying to help coaches in this way. And it just morphed over time, the more classrooms I was in, and the more teachers and coaches I was helping, I realized there was this system. And we kept trying to work on what teachers said they wanted to work on, or what principals said was the focus for the year, or the district is all about this new initiative. And it just wasn’t working. And we couldn’t figure out if this is the thing we’re working on. And we’re working on it, why is it not working? And it’s because there’s a sequence that we have to attack first, before you can get to the thing you really want to do. And so I’ve been working, especially with veteran teachers, who feel like I don’t need to work on lesson planning, I’m ready for the engagement, give me all the tools like tell me, what’s the latest thing that’s working. And it’s like, listen, we have got to go back to the beginning and find out. If you design and experience well, then you’re able to manage it. And the classroom Well, which then allows for engagement to actually work. It’s not just being busy and students talking and using a cool tech tool, it’s actually allowing the information to solidify for students so that it translates to academic gains in the classroom. And so once I figured out what the sequence was, then I’m like, everyone has to know about this. And that’s when jossey bass said, let’s write it down and share it with everyone. And so it’s ideally like the teachers could pick it up, and they could read it start to finish and think about where am I on this process? Do I have what I call Swiss cheese, like there’s holes, you don’t need to start from scratch, but there’s little things that you need to go back and fix. And then you start building them and I call them bricks, you know, brick by brick. And then I told coaches use this as you get your caseload of teachers decide what they need, and then pull the chapter or pull the piece of the chapter that makes sense. And that’s what you use in coaching cycles for that specific person. So it helps you really identify where in the sequence the teacher struggling, fill that up, so they can get to the good stuff, which is the engagement in the student ownership and all the fun part of the culture of the classroom. So the four part series is the lesson design first, that’s that first break, and then you’ve got classroom management, and then you’ve got student engagement, and then you’ve got the ownership piece. And if you try and work out an order, it just is a lot of wasted time and energy and frustration. And sometimes we have to be a little realistic with where we are and self reflection and videotaping yourself. So you really know like, Okay, you’re right, I gotta go back another brick, like, I really thought I had this thing nailed. And there’s something going on there that we have to shore up. And I tell veteran teachers, just because you’ve taught a million years you this is a new group of kids and the culture around them. And society is different. And the the curriculum is different, right? So there’s always a new piece to the puzzle. And so we shouldn’t think of it as embarrassing if we have to go to brick one real quick and figure things out for this specific group. But it’s really an encouraging and empowering roadmap to attack instruction. And so I’m glad we’re going to just hone in on that engagement piece. Yes, I

Chrissy Beltran  09:14

but I do think you have a really great point about that. Because so many times we go, okay, we need more engagement, we need more engagement, but really what’s missing is management. Yes. Or really what’s missing is does the teacher have an idea of what they’re trying to accomplish with this engagement strategy? What is the meat of the lesson? Are we just having kids you know, walk around the room and mixed up and pair up for no purpose? Right? Yeah. Yeah, we have to have those things in place all that has to be in place and thought through and purposeful before we can start just peppering in random engagement strategies. We don’t want to do that without meaning.

Gretchen Bridgers  09:47

That was like when technology was just beginning and classrooms through for actually like, did I get a check for technology? Like I had something going on, but it didn’t enhance the lesson at all. It’s like, what are we doing the same thing engagement

Chrissy Beltran  10:00

matters, right? That’s exactly right. So I would love to talk about this this engagement component really focus on it. What do you look for in a classroom when you are coaching for engagement? And how do you know whether students are engaged or not?

Gretchen Bridgers  10:13

So I want to walk in a classroom and tell myself, what does engagement look like? So this means their behaviors, it means their emotional state, like, are they really feeling part of this family in the classroom? Or is it just compliance? Like they’re just answering? Because they have to answer, you know, I also want to think, Okay, what does it sound like? So they may look engaged, like they’re paying attention, or that they’re taking notes. But when they’re actually discussing or asking questions, what’s the level there? And we call that cognitive engagement? So is it low level questions they’re asking, which tells me like, we’re not ready, like, we need to back up a little bit here. Or when they’re talking with peers, are they just dancing around ideas and not really getting deep enough? So you have to look beyond what it looks like, and then do the sounds like and then the final kind of on the meter, there is the production. So what are they actually showcasing that they learned, and that’s really telling of where they are in their understanding and engagement is really just to help you learn more, it’s part of the learning process. It’s not activities, and it’s not looking busy. And it’s not being loud and distracted. It’s really about the processing and exchanging of ideas. And so when you walk into a classroom, don’t get fooled. If it’s quiet, and everyone’s facing the teacher, and they’re asking and answering questions, and they’re jotting notes. You’re like, wow, they’re really engaged. It’s like, but to what level? Right? And is it actually transferring to knowledge? Or is it just compliance? So it does take a while for you to get in the habit of going in? And doing that three? Check. What does it look like? What does it sound like? And what are they producing? And that helps you get away from the compliance and more into that authentic engagement?

Chrissy Beltran  11:58

Yeah, I agree. Kind of kind of reminds me of when I was talking to my friend, and she’s a teacher in fourth grade. And she was telling her students, you know, I’m going to be out, this is what the sub is going to have you do. And the kids are sitting there looking at her and they’re like, Okay, yeah, we can do it. And she’s like, this is what’s going to happen. And then whenever I come back, we’re going to work on this or like, okay, like you have any questions, and somebody raised their hand and said, Are your toenails painted black or blue? And so they look like they were really like listening and trying to understand what she was explaining. And they were like, not even on the same day. That’s yeah.

Gretchen Bridgers  12:34

Did you listen to anything that was just say, yeah, no,

Chrissy Beltran  12:38

absolutely not. We did not concern about your nail color.

Gretchen Bridgers  12:42

And now that we know what color is now we’re ready to listen. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran  12:47

Right. Then what as you’re, as you’re helping teachers prepare for, you know, actually planning for engagement, integrating engagement practices, what are some of the coaching methods or strategies that you’ve used to help teachers do

Gretchen Bridgers  13:00

this. So we kind of start from the that lower brick of the planning system, and that kind of can get a little frustrating, but I think it’s important that they understand. So whether you put them together and PD or PLC, you lay the land, it’s like, we’re talking engagement, everyone’s like, yes, what are all the different activities? And you’re like, Ooh, let’s back up. Like, why do we need to have engagement? What is it and what is it not? And how can we incorporate this, and engagement is actually super tied to ownership. And I have this analogy about who rode the bike today, meaning, if you’re up there doing all this, as the teacher you’re learning, you’re, you’re you’re doing all of that process, and they’re just sitting back passively, and that’s not going to help them learn. And the same is true in the engagement. If you’re always the one running the activity, or you’re the one like it can’t happen without you there, then is not the deepest level of engagement should be student run, it should be allowing them to exchange ideas and build on each other’s ideas. And so a lot of that takes purposeful planning, you can’t just whip that out. It’s not just an activity you print off or Google real quick, like, Okay, how do I do a waterfall activity? Or? Or how do I do a gallery walk? You know, you like you really have to think, why is this specific strategy essential for this lesson? And what does it look like during direct instruction? What does it look like during guided practice? What does this look like during independent practice? And how do I sprinkle those engagements around? And so once we’ve planned, how are they going to think during this lesson? What are they going to write? What do I hope they speak to each other? What are we going to actually produce? Then we’re ready to set up the system. So that’s that management classroom management piece of how can someone be successful to do whatever I’m asking them to do today? You have to put a lot of parameters in place. And so that makes you have to sit and think, how are they going to transition? What’s the volume level? Where are the materials for this thing? And you’re thinking, gosh, I have to create systems for everything. Well, hopefully you already You have a lot of classroom management systems happening, and you’re just tapping into them for the engagement piece. And then you can move in to engagement. And you might have to do a little low level engagement, which could be what I call interaction, like, thumbs up, or nod your head or yes or no. But then we got to move. And we got to do that high level engagement. But I do have to warn you, you can’t hang out there all day, like asking lots of high level questions, you’re going to lose folks. And it’s actually called cognitive exhaustion, where your brains like working on overdrive, and it can only do that for so long. Just like when you’re running, you can’t sprint for very long, you’re gonna get tired. So you need to think about, okay, where are my kids in this part of the lesson? Do they need lower level engagement to help process and take a break? Or are they ready to rev it up and do something? And so it’s helpful to think through who, which kids are together? What do I want them to do? What type of activity matches this, and all that thought takes place in the planning phase. And so then, once you’ve talked through with the teacher, we’ve got a plan, we know what our systems are going to be to do this, it’s time to just go for it. Let’s go for the engagement. And then when you’re doing your coaching cycles, and you’re observing, and then you’re giving the feedback, now you can talk about how to tweak it, what would go different? What could you have done instead? What were some hiccups, but um, I guess I share all this to just say, we have to give them the background of what engagement is what its purpose is. So we truly understand how to utilize it so that it has the results we want it to have. We don’t want to just walk in and be like, check that kids were engaged as a node to what level? And how did that help them achieve something? And then how do I share that with a colleague, so their classroom can thrive at high levels. And it takes a long time to master this. It’s not just like a one and done, I went to this workshop on engagement, like, I’ve got 20 Different games or activities I can do. It’s like, that’s all great and everything, but they’ve got to engage with the content, they’ve got to engage with each other, they’ve got to engage with the teacher. And all of that requires so much thought. And then once you’ve kind of figured out your system and how it works for you and your kids, then you replicate it, and you just do it the next day, but maybe the activity changes. So it’s not overwhelming in the end. But in the beginning, just like when you start to learn to write lesson plans, it takes a long time. It’s a lot of thought and intentionality. But that’s the only way that engagements even worth it.

Chrissy Beltran  17:31

Yeah, it hats off purpose has to have meaning I remember asking teachers, what is something we can do here that would help us have kids do this, we want kids to do this. So then what is something like an activity or engagement strategy that would support them in doing that kind of thinking? Because you’re trying to get at the thinking it’s engagement is, is taking that information, giving kids an opportunity to work with it and turn it around and engage with it. So that it becomes knowledge and information and learning that they now have, it’s another opportunity to work with it. And so if we’re not having kids, teachers think through that process, then we’re just like, like we said, sprinkling on random engagement strategies, and that’s not gonna serve any purpose. No. And I think that I’ve seen so far, whenever I was a coach, a new coach, I remember looking at a lesson plan for my first grade teachers. And I was like, Okay, I don’t I’m confused why? Here’s the lesson sequence. And then over here, you have the questions you’re gonna ask, like, separately? And I was like, Well, why? Why wouldn’t you put them in the lesson where you’re gonna ask them? Yes, they were like, oh, because he just were they were filling out the form we were supposed to ask, here you go. I was like, well get rid of that columns, because they get to get all of what are you going to do in the lesson? That’s the sequence, right? So that’s where engagement goes as well. It’s got a purpose in the lesson. It’s not a strategy you’re tacking on afterwards to fill in the engagement box, it’s the way kids are going to interact with the content. So then that’s where it needs to go in your lesson sequence in a logical place. Because that’s what you’re going to do during your lesson. Yes, you’re

Gretchen Bridgers  19:09

in it. Yeah.

Chrissy Beltran  19:10

So okay, so like, let’s say that you have, you know, provided PD to your whole school, about engagement and the reasoning, the rationale and teachers are trying out different strategies and things. And then you go do some work with individual teachers, maybe through coaching cycles, and, and you plan with them, they implement, you give feedback. And then over time, as you move away from that classroom, maybe you start working with another teacher, things go back to the way that they were. Yeah, so how can you create sort of like a support system to help teachers continue to plan and implement engagement strategies even once you’re not working with that teacher directly in maybe one on one anymore?

Gretchen Bridgers  19:48

I’m glad you brought that up. Because that does happen. It’s easy to slip back into old habits, especially when the accountability is gone. When they know the coach isn’t coming in when they know they don’t have a debrief to run to right It’s just easy to just go back to the way it was. So one way to attack that is before you even start working with anybody, they set their goal. And obviously, this is going to be around engagement. And then they’ve given themselves action steps, and you are able to give them options like a choice board of how they want to continue their professional learning. And so maybe it’s okay, I’m going on learning walks in these two classrooms, I’m only focusing on engagement, I’ve got blinders on to everything else, especially in the kindergarten class, when the bulletin boards all cute and the kids are all cute, like, I’m gonna just focus on engagement. And then you can say, Okay, now partner up with someone, you can submit lesson plans, some have to submit them to principals or coaches. And that can leave you little questions like, which student is answering this question or house pacing for this engagement activity? So I’m still supporting you, even though it’s not one on one through lesson plan feedback, or in a PLC, you all might be talking about a future lesson. But I can prompt with questions about engagement and getting you to think through what does this look like in your classroom and your classroom? Because you have different needs, and you have a different culture setup. And there may be different boundaries and management systems, and then maybe an informal check in so I know you’ve been working on engagement, I knew you tried this new cool activity. And when I see you in the hallway, Hey, how’d that go? Right? So the ongoing conversation that at any moment that I pass you, I’m like, how is that? I hope it’s going well for you. How did this one student do? Are you allowing students more ownership now that you’ve tried this activity before, I’m just kind of keeping that dialogue going, and then encourage them to film themselves and do reflection, they don’t have to turn it in, they don’t have to even admit mistakes they’ve made, I don’t even need to know. But it’s like, if you think like, you’re not going to know the park, film yourself for five minutes, and then reflect on it and see what else you can do to just short up to be as strong as possible. And then the one thing that I always tell coaches, you should have office hours, even if it’s virtual through an app, where you’re just available q&a, you can ask me anything, I can help you talk through something for tomorrow. But obviously, our monthly topic is engagement, or this year’s focus is engagement. So I really want to have you think through creative ways to bring that into your classroom. And so that those are just some simple ways to coach without officially being in a coaching cycle.

Chrissy Beltran  22:19

Yeah, like that. I think coming back to it during PLCs is a great way during meetings that you have with teachers, whether they’re planning or other team meetings, even having teachers say, okay, so this is like our main focus, so then maybe we can bring back an artifact or, you know, feedback about a strategy. If we tried something out, then maybe we can all agree collectively that this is what we’re going to bring next time to discuss together. So that there’s kind of like that accountability to each other just because you’re trying things out.

Gretchen Bridgers  22:46

Yeah. And if you have like a show and share during your meetings, and all staff meetings, even if it’s just five minutes, but also having the teacher say, I selected this engagement strategy, because it gives that purposeful intentionality behind it, then everyone’s like, Oh, I see how that fit into that lesson, why you chose that. And that helps model for them the thinking they need to be doing when they’re selecting the different activities for their class. And then obviously, they get the activity to add to their tool belt. So it’s just a great opportunity for everybody.

Chrissy Beltran  23:16

Yeah, even in a PD having, I think, actually done something like this word, where it was like, if this is our intention for the lesson, then you had to match the best like what out of these choices which which activity or strategy might be a best fit, if this is what you’re trying to get kids to do. Right? And so and because I’m one of the thing that we see a lot is like not matching, like the verb or level of rigor or complexity, you know, of what kids are asked to do to the activity. So then, you know, we have oh, well, we’re gonna engage kids, it’s gonna be hands on and they’re gonna match but the verb is asking them to do is maybe evaluate or apply match matching, you know, right so that’s that was kind of linemen. Yes, our alignment in our in our standards in our learning targets or objectives, and then our activity and assessment, all of those things have to be aligned. And sometimes they’re not so much, because people are, like you said, they’re using their technology to, you know, project a video, but that has nothing to do with kids using technologies. So okay, if a coach’s main focus right now, is coaching for engagement. And that’s really where they’re focusing their effort. What are some of the first steps that they need to take to establish this? Good,

Gretchen Bridgers  24:24

I would say get to the root of the issue. And so if teachers were like, I just want to engage in strategies, just give me the strategies like where do I go to find the next school activity, and it’s like, let’s back up, I want to come observe you or you do some self reflection, I want to make sure that that’s the entry point, because it probably is not there’s probably an issue in your planning. That’s not thorough enough that led to some mis behaviors in the classroom management piece. And now when you’re trying to engage, it’s just a hot mess. So making sure that we have really pinpointed the area where the breakdown is happening, and then you can engage in that planning option. Ovation feedback loop of the cycle. And finally just tweak and change it for each different subject or topic. But really, I think the the main point here is to ensure that those bricks like I had mentioned before, are really strong. And sometimes you’re putting band aids on things and you’re not seeing results. And it’s because you’ve got to go deeper, you’ve got to go below it to see what might be happening. And maybe your your lesson plan is thorough, but maybe you’re not managing what you’ve planned very well. And so then we’re working on the classroom piece, before we get to the engagement, it’s different for everybody, and teachers who teach multiple classes, whether your elementary level, and you’re just teaching one subject and rotating folks through or your middle school or high school or whatever, you’re going to experience, the last period, I was just fine, this same lesson went so great. And this one’s falling apart in the dynamics is what we’re attacking and problem solving. So please don’t take it personal. If you feel like you’re struggling, it rarely has to do with who you are as a human or your capability as an educator has all to do with these pieces, and the effects and the interaction with the people that are in the room at the time.

Chrissy Beltran  26:08

Yeah, that’s a really good point. Can you remind us of those four components that you have?

Gretchen Bridgers  26:14

Yeah, so lesson design, Master management, student engagement, student ownership, that’s the vessel and that’s what we want to get to as self running classroom. Kids like Ron to the class to show up, they love it so much. And yeah, we all want to hang out there. But it takes a lot of work to build up to that. Alright,

Chrissy Beltran  26:31

I love that. So how can people keep learning from you if they want to grab your book? Or if they just want to see you speak or what any of the stuff that you share online? How can people find you

Gretchen Bridgers  26:41

I would love to connect with you guys and go to always alesund.com That’s my hub. That’s my home. It’s got a blog on there, the empowering educators podcast is housed there. The book should pop up there you can also find it on Amazon again, always the lessons teacher essentials for classroom and career success. And on top of the website is all my social. So wherever you like to hang, click that button and we can follow each other.

Chrissy Beltran  27:03

Awesome. Alright, thank you so much for being here today.

Gretchen Bridgers  27:05

Thank you.

Chrissy Beltran  27:09

So many great things to think about from Gretchen. I love that four part sequence. And I think she’s exactly right. We have to go back and figure out where is it breaking down and what is in place before we just put band aids on top of throwing out you know, Kagan strategies that teachers next week, we are starting a new much requested series, and I’m really excited to share it with you. It’s about motivation and morale and mindset. We’re gonna jump right in with an episode about building teacher morale, and I think we all know that it is seriously needed right now. So until then, happy coaching!