Building a Coaching Culture When Your Admin Isn’t Supportive with Dr. Delia Racines, Ep. 157 Instructional Coaching with Ms. B

Building a Coaching Culture When Your Admin Isn’t Supportive with Dr. Delia Racines, Ep. 157 Buzzing with Ms. B: The Coaching Podcast

Chrissy Beltran  00:01

What’s your instructional coaching personality type? Have you ever wondered what superpowers make you a really strong coach? And what areas you could strengthen a little with a little direction? Well, now you can find out, I created the What’s your instructional coaching personality type quiz? To help you answer this very question. Just head to buzzing with mcafee.com/quiz with a capital Q to take the two minute quiz and get your coaching personality type sent right to your inbox. Even better, you’ll get a playlist of podcast episodes that are handpicked just for you to help you hone your superpowers and strengthen your areas of growth. I’m so excited to share this place with you so don’t wait. Go to buzzing with Ms. b.com slash quiz with a capital Q and learn so much about your coaching fellow. Hey, Coach, Are you new to coaching starting out as a coach can be incredibly overwhelming, especially when you aren’t given much directions or your administration. That’s why I created the new coach’s playbook. It includes a roadmap to help you start building your coaching foundation and a guide to seven podcast episodes in order that will give you the steps and ideas you need to build relationships. Define your role, communicate with your admin and make a plan to start coaching. Grab it today for free at buzzing witness b.com/new coach and save yourself so much time and stress. You’re listening to buzzing with Miss B the coaching podcast where we believe that every teacher deserves a coach, and every coach does too. I’m Chrissy Beltran, an instructional coach, resource creator and coffee enthusiast, and I’m your host, stay tuned for practical tips and honest coaching talk that will help you coach with confidence.

Chrissy Beltran  01:48

Hey, coach, and welcome to episode 157. Building a coaching culture when admin isn’t supportive, if you’ve been trying to figure out how to get your school to make big changes and better support kids, whether we’re talking about shifts and strategies, methods moving to integrate SEL moving to integrate Sr, changing the way we teach math or science or really any other thing this series is for you. This month, we’re looking at how to approach support and learning across your school. And the only way we can support all teachers and help them try new things is by building a coaching culture. Building a coaching culture is hard, even under the best of circumstances. But Newsflash, many of us don’t work under the best of circumstances. In fact, many administrators actually undermine coaches. Now I know they might not be doing it intentionally. But that is often what’s happening. I know when admin who used to say, if they don’t want to try it, I can’t make them. And of course, we can’t make a teacher try something new. But we can certainly create the conditions in which they’d want to try instead of giving up on this new thing without trying it. So what do we do when our admin isn’t supporting the coaching work that would actually help our teachers grow today? My guest, Delia raciness is going to help us figure it out. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. raciness.

03:06

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you, and it’s nice to virtually meet you. You too.

Chrissy Beltran  03:14

Could you introduce yourself to our listeners, maybe talk a little bit about who you are, how you ended up here and what kind of work you focus on?

03:21

Yes, sure. So my my first name is Delia, anyone who knows, you know, it’s just call me, Delia. The last name is Christina. It’s a mouthful. I am originally from the Washington DC area and born and raised. And now I live here in Los Angeles. And I say how I ended up with the education field was a complete accident. I had a full career in criminology before I got into the education realm. And I worked with victims of crime. I worked for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. So if you’re familiar with John Walsh at all or Adam, his son was Adam Washington, he created cyncoed Adam, he was my Yeah, he was my first boss. Yes, and that so that was what my career was really grounded in when I first left college, I got my master’s in criminology, and were to work for the Office for Victims of Crime. And then I worked in a prison in Venezuela. And that’s actually probably where I was introduced to the idea or the concept of teaching is working in a child care center in the prison in the women’s prison with children whose parents had been his mother had been arrested, so that kids go to prison with the mom to not break that family bond. Wow. So I know when I tell people that was my introduction, education, that’s like really, but it was and when I came back to the States, I had I was interviewing for another position in we call the state we know That’s how we refer to it. And during that background investigation is when I was substitute teaching. And so that’s where I met my very first mentor who’s still my mentor today. And he said, Look, you have a real knack for teaching. And I was like, oh, no, I’m not here to teach. Here, too. I’m just waiting for my paperwork to go through. And this is great. And he had said, I’m okay. But you know, they really like you. And I had ended up in a classroom, where it was an exchange teacher, it was she was here from Hungary. And she thought that she was coming here to teach English to English speakers, not English to English learners. And she had told the kids that she didn’t like them, and that you didn’t come to this country for that. And I was like, Oh, I was like, that was me. And right, and that moment, just ignited this, like, what do you think you are in me? And that is really where my advocacy came from, in that moment, and I was like, why are you talking to these kids like that? And of course, by no coincidence, there were it was a class of English learners. I grew up as an English learner, and one of the Dorian and I don’t know that Mama bear came out of me, like, Billy, and no wonder this, this class is out of control. They’re having the time of their lives. I thought it was hysterical. I was like, well, these, you know, fast forward, I switched careers, I ended up having a conversation with that principal. And he’s, he asked me, you know, are you 100% happy with what you’re doing? And I was like, No. And I wanted to do you know, you know, gut is was telling me, I wanted to do something more proactive than reactive in the field that I was already in. And somehow that became it. And so I ended up teaching there for the next seven years for the most amazing principal. And then I had a coach. So that was where I was introduced to coaching. She was amazing. But we had a small army of coaches there. And that district is about 300 of us. And I became a coach. And then I further got my dissertation done in civil rights for English learners. So I kept my legal lens on through education. And fast forward moving to California. I got here, mainly because most of my research came out of California, all the Supreme Court cases for civil rights. And there was no coaches here, I was like, I came from this huge army of coaches with a ton of support to nothing. And it was, it was a harsh reality. And so I decided to build my own coaching army out here. And that’s how I ended up in this consulting work of my own is the need. There’s, there’s a huge need in California. And, and that’s where I’ve continued coaching folks and building coaching programs out here in California. So long story short,

Chrissy Beltran  08:00

yeah. I’m sure there’s a lot more to that story than there is.

08:07

There’s always so many different, you know, they always say Hindsight is 2020. Because my path was certainly not. But it’s, it’s been quite the journey. And it’s been, it’s been a really great one.

Chrissy Beltran  08:19

Yeah, how amazing. So the first thing that I want to ask you is, you know, we really want to get into coaching culture. And so a lot of people haven’t really even experienced a strong coaching culture at their schools. So what does it look like when you have really built a coaching culture where you know, it’s actually functioning the way it’s intended to function?

08:39

Yeah, so I always say it looks, it looks like coherence versus conformity. And it’s palpable, I’d say, it creates this environment that’s positive, really palpable. And if you’ve experienced one, or I’ve been lucky enough to experience one, you know what that feels like? It’s as high energy. Everyone’s happy. And I’m so grateful that that was my first five years of teaching. And having experienced that when I created a coaching program out here, I’ve also seen the journey of what it’s not. I’ve been on the other end of it, where it’s not that I certainly know what it feels like when it actually can achieve that. And so I know it’s possible. And I on that granular level, it’s really people speaking the same language, the terminology is consistent. You know, what the coaching role is, you understand the research and that’s such the root of it. If you understand what a coach’s purpose is, what they do and how they can support. Once that is in alignment. It’s palpable, because it’s not just us, them. It’s this. We’re all here for the same thing, and that should be students. And so it’s it truly is palpable, and when you feel it in that high energy, it’s contagious. And it’s a real be really great to be a part of because you’re all working towards the same goal.

Chrissy Beltran  10:05

So I’m really glad you brought up that common language. And I think that is so important. And it’s often overlooked. It takes time to develop that. It really?

10:14

Yes, it does. And that I think there’s, I think when you throw out the terminology of coaching, it’s such a general like, oh, yeah, we know what coaching is, but it’s very rarely defined, right? So it has to be, you know, what is the purpose of coaching? What is that? And as redundant as that might sound? Or oh, I know what that is, it really has to be explicit. It suited the 10 rules of coaching or, you know, however, your district designs, the programmer, there is one. And what sometimes you find it, there isn’t much of a structure, because it’s such a general term that everybody knows what coaching is. But it’s better it’s not. So that’s where these myths, assumptions come in right from the get go. So it is important to lay down that foundation. And even if you think it’s, you know, they don’t need that, do it, do it anyways, and just be redundant, then, to make sure that all that terminology is really clear.

Chrissy Beltran  11:09

Yeah, I agree with that. 100%. A lot of people are like, well, they’ve had a coach before, or well, I’ve worked with them for years. But if you don’t define it, they are making up their own definition. And they may have ones and they may not be good ones.

11:22

Yes, exactly. And I experienced both sides of that. And we’re like, let’s go back. Let’s rewind. Yeah, it’s the ending of coaching. And certainly, when you hear that, what their understanding might be, it really tells you a lot. And if you don’t start there, like you know, what has been your experience with coaches, that tells you a lot. So good place to start. Yeah,

Chrissy Beltran  11:44

do what do you want teachers to know about coaches? Like, as you’re trying to establish this culture? If there’s a strong coaching culture established? What do teachers know about coaches? Does that make sense?

11:55

To understand the mission of coaching, you know, like, what is the purpose of coaching, we’re here to help build capacity in teachers to do what? To improve student learning to improve teaching and learning, right? We’re not here to we’re not set a fixed model. We’re not life coaches, we’re not therapists, you know, there’s such a huge misunderstanding of what we do. And it’s also really important to tell folks what we don’t do. And that’s we’re not evaluative, which I think is the beauty of coaching. And we are performance driven, you know, we’re working towards a goal, and what is that goal? And we always, you know, if you’re a fan of Jim Knight, you know, there’s no goal, and there’s going to be no measurable outcome with that. Right. So a lot of the components of a coaching program have to be pretty explicit to the roles, the mission, what we’re aligned to, and what’s our purpose? And then how do we know that it’s effective? That’s a big question when it comes to how you’re being funded to is, how do you know you’re being effective? And how do you measure that? So all of these components are important to lay down that foundation of a really good, solid coaching culture and coaching role to establish yourself in whatever district you might be in?

Chrissy Beltran  13:05

Yeah, thank you for spelling all of that out. As you’re trying to establish all of that, what role does trust play in the culture?

13:12

So as soon as you sent that questionnaire, I was like everything. And of course, I’m as transparent as they come. The reason why it’s such a close topic to me is my very first book was written about trust. And the reason I came out of the gate, I was asked to write a book actually in a different topic. And it was an immediate No, because trust is everything to me personally, if you don’t have trust, it really doesn’t matter what you know, who you know, the research you have, nobody cares. You have to be trustworthy, you have to be able to be trusted, and also extend that trust in order for shifts and practices to really happen. The real kind, right? So I say when we really talk about what you really can see when during a coaching conversation, you can get someone I think it’s what Simon says in terms of their inner voice in their outer voice, like when you really hear and whether it’s really transparent if someone’s really being real with you. And you can only get that if you if you have full trust. If people trust you, then they’re going to tell you, you know, my coach, I’m thankful I can tell her anything I know I can call her and tell her absolutely anything because I trust her. And I know that what I tell her is, you know, what’s happens in coaching conversation stays in them. And so that’s been established. And when you have that with a coach, it’s everything. It’s really everything to you, and you can build from that strong foundation. Mm hmm.

Chrissy Beltran  14:47

Yeah, I agree with that. The idea that it doesn’t matter what you know, if teachers don’t want to hear it from you. Yeah.

14:56

So absolutely. Absolutely. And you I mean, you know, in terms of what the research says, you know, if there’s high trust in your school, and the outcomes usually match it, right. And if there is not, then the vibe, then the opposite is also true. And it’s palpable, too. So I also think that, you know, when you’re in an environment where you can’t trust someone, and what that feels like, and it’s also exhausting, when you can’t trust the people that you’re working with, and it can be, you know, it can make it really challenging, and it makes it for a place where you don’t want to work to be honest.

Chrissy Beltran  15:34

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, as you were saying that we always talk about trust that the teacher has to trust the coach. And I have not really thought about it in terms of the times that I’ve been sitting in a session with a teacher, and I didn’t feel like I could trust the teacher, to you know, and I just never really thought about that. But if it’s part of the culture, that we have a trusting relationship, then we should, I should be able to trust the teacher that I’m working with. And sometimes you don’t feel that that’s the case.

15:59

Right. And a lot of the times, it’s because there’s so much history in that school that maybe we don’t know about. And that’s really was my experience being a new coach going into a district that never had had a coach. But the more I dug, the more I thought, they did actually have a coach years ago, and nobody liked them. And it was not effective. And so they thought it was a waste of space. And so I came to understand the reluctance in the behavior that I saw, but it had nothing to do with me. They’ve been through it, you know, and they’re like, You can’t imagine the things we’ve seen. And you know what, I wasn’t there. So I didn’t see it. So I had take the time to understand the history of people that had been there way longer than I had. And then I was like, I get it. There’s this mistrust here, in this entire school, and you know, and so that, you have to understand it, where it comes from. And that takes a long time. Like you said, it takes a while to really understand all of that, especially when you’re new coming into school, super positive and ready to go. And then you’re like, Yeah, I’m here. What did I say yes to? Oh, yeah. But it takes time. And you have to trust yourself to entrust the research of coaching. And go slow to go fast is what I always say it’s just go slow to go fast. And there’s a lot of validity and your own experience, too. So you know, that don’t let that self imposter syndrome creep in on you and tell you you’ve done the wrong thing. So just stick with it.

Chrissy Beltran  17:30

Yes, absolutely. When I was a new coach, I walked into a school that had had a coach before, but they didn’t really they were not coaching anything. They were just like doing data meetings and stuff. And then and that was it. That was the extent of what they really did with teachers. I’m not really sure what they did all day, honestly. Because that person was still there. And they’d been moved into a different position. And whenever I asked what they did, they just said data meetings. And the teachers were like, I don’t know. So it was weird. And they also they had had a previous administration, that was very, there were lots of favorites. There were lots of people being punished. It was just very punitive. And so they were coming out of that environment with a new administrator with a new coach with several new leadership people. And it was a big, big challenge some people right away were like, Oh, I can see that you are not you’re different. And I’m excited to work with you. And some people, it took a very long time to embrace. And then people from other schools were like, What is this because I did work that maybe was different than the coaches at their schools had done. So it was a it was a big challenge. And it does take time to build that culture. And not everybody always wants to be part of that culture. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah.

18:42

That’s to be understood. Right? And you’re like, Okay, I understand. Yeah, I think when I asked that question, now, I’m thinking of that of that score. I joined and I asked like, so tell me about your coach that was here beforehand. Now that is that you actually had one. And they were like, we hate it. Or we don’t even know what she did. And I was like, Yeah, I mean, I was thankful that they were transparent with me and told me how it was. But I was also like, Okay, how do I

Chrissy Beltran  19:07

get on that list? How do I stay off of that list?

19:11

And that’s all I knew, like, you know what, let’s circle back. Let’s circle back here, guys. And then, you know, I understood and then it was fun and fun and games after that, because it was game on. And then I knew how to approach every team and they were so much fun. You’re after that, but I tell you what, the first few weeks were brutal, because I was like, ah, but I, you know, listen, paid attention and observed a whole lot, especially in larger faculty meetings. And I was like, wow, these dynamics are awesome. So it was just a lot about paying attention of what those dynamics were and understanding also the history of that district to I was like, Oh, wow, okay. So you know, and not being judgmental. But, you know, I think it’s hard, you know, the human side of us like, whoa, but then you have to go okay, so Why am I here? Right? Like stay grounded in the work. And it’s, it’s you’re constantly coaching yourself to like, Okay, you’re here for a reason. Stick with stick with the wall, you know what you’re doing? Keep going. Right? So it’s a daily thing.

Chrissy Beltran  20:14

Yeah, absolutely. How can it administrator actually support building this culture? Effectively?

20:22

Yes, I think having then become an assistant principal and a principal. And I, you know that that is such a traditional trajectory, which I also don’t believe in necessarily, because I think there’s a lot of different avenues that you can go into, depending on what your interests are, because I can tell you, I always say that because I come from such a, you know, corporate nonprofit world that, you know, I say, game on, or whatever it is where your hearts leading you to go with it, you don’t have to follow this trajectory. Because I know a lot of folks were like, I’m not doing administration. And I certainly was actually one of them. So, accidentally became an assistant principal and a principal too. But I think one of the things that always sticks with me, it’s not about the role that you’re in, it’s about your goal, it’s about the goal that you have, and that is impact. And what impact are you trying to make an on whom it really shouldn’t be about? Like, what are you trying to do? It’s what is the school need? And why are you in the position that you’re in to be able to build the capacity and the people that are around you. And I always say, if you’re like, if you’re walking and no one’s following, then you’re just taking a walk by yourself, right? So don’t walk alone, it’s really important to make sure that they’re with you that your team is with you, and that you’re all united, not only in that same vision and mission, but like why are we all here? And why are we doing this work, and try to make those decisions collectively. So I think, administrators, it’s it’s hard to remember how hard teaching is teaching is so complex. And I think the further up you go, there’s this, you know, there’s this distance from that reality, that you have to stay grounded in that cycle of teaching, right? And your your teaching the assessment, it’s constant, it’s like never ending because the parents and the grades and the whole nine, you cannot get far removed from what that looks like, just because you’re not in the actual classroom anymore. So in a five minute visit, is not enough. It’s just not. So you have to remember what it’s like to be in the classroom when you’re not in it anymore. So that’s, that’s the first thing that came to mind in terms of that question. And administrators also need really clear systems in place. And as clear as it is, when you’re coming out of the pocket as a coach of like, what’s your mission and values? You need to be able to do that? As an administrator to? Who are you one? Why are you here? That’s just as important because we’ve all been on the other side of meeting administrators who are just climbing the ladder, right? You know, that? It’s palpable. Yep. And you feel it? And you’re like, great, like, I don’t want to be here. Yeah, great. Or how long? Or how long? Are you here?

Chrissy Beltran  23:04

They can wait you out? Yeah, yeah. And

23:07

are the practices that you’re implementing going to stick with you? Or are they going to leave when you leave kind of thing. And so all these things, you have to be really cognizant of as an administrator, that you’re building systems for this school, to stay there. So your job is to build the capacity to make sure that it stays with the school, no matter who is in and out of that position. And so that should be really on your priority list of building the capacity in your school within the people that you have. And compassionate transparency is something I talk about a lot. And that is, you know, teachers or adults, you know, be direct, in a compassionate way. Be transparent, like, come on, if there’s something they need to know, please just tell them. That was certainly my experience. I was a principal during COVID. And I was like, great, like, how am I going to do this, but I was transparent. We’re all going home. And it was like, what? I wasn’t going to hold it back information or anything that I knew that they needed to know, because they’re adults, tell them Palace teachers what they need to know and don’t hold back information for the sake of I no more information than you. I hated that as a teacher. So I promised myself I would never do that no matter what position I would be in. So that’s, that’s really important to me.

Chrissy Beltran  24:25

Yeah, I think the idea of having that vision so that everything that you do is supportive of that vision is great. And, and you’re right, we do see so many administrators who are on the move, they are moving up. They’re like, Well, I’m the principal of an elementary school today. And maybe next year, I’ll be at the middle school, and then eventually I can be at central office and you can see people who do want to do that. And that does create a dynamic of, well, we’ll just wait out the guy until he leaves and then you know, we’ll see who we get next. And so I’m going to do what I think is best for kids, which I that’s one of those phrases that I find super harmful. Um because it gives people it’s not that you don’t sometimes have to do that when bad things or bad policies are coming down. But it is, you know, harmful if that’s what you approach your whole career. Because then you’re saying, I have nothing to learn. I’m just gonna do my own thing. You know? That’s really dangerous.

25:15

Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think so, it’s important to remember the complexity of teaching. And I think it’s important for people to know who you are, when you’re in when you’re with them every single day of that you’re there to support them and you want you want to. And as simple as that sounds, it’s just not like you actually want to help them. You know, that? Yeah, really, to help them period.

Chrissy Beltran  25:42

The what are some really unsupportive things that you have seen administrators to that, you know, have undermined coaching culture. So coaches are like actively trying to build trust, and they’re trying to build, you know, a collaborative learning, and we all have these weird visions, and they’re trying to do all this stuff. And then principal comes along, and like completely undermines it. What is What are they doing? That’s really harmful?

26:02

Oh, man, I love that question. Because I was like, oh, man,

Chrissy Beltran  26:06

I’m one. Yeah, sure. We all have things like that. Yeah,

26:10

I lived it. And, you know, I think number one, it’s not supporting coaches and building their capacity to what, whatever it is that they want to do. And it doesn’t like I said, it doesn’t have to be visible or principal, like, what do they want? And some folks like myself, return to coaching, because it’s what they love. Maybe that’s okay. Like, that’s okay. Like, one of the things I hate is constantly being pushed to move up, move up. And I was like, Oh, this is so going against the grain of me like, I don’t, I don’t want that. And so listening to the coach and listening to what they want, do you even know what their trajectory is? Do they have one, and if they don’t, that’s also okay. You can be a life coach. And that’s great. Like, let that be okay for who they are and what they want. But if you’re not providing opportunities for them to lead, co lead whatever that looks like for you, then you’re not really maximizing their strengths that they’re bringing to the table. Because you’re not giving them an opportunity to shine. And so it really is your job as an administrator to showcase everyone’s strengths, really not just the coach, but what about the rest of your teachers and your teaching staff? We know that there’s massive amount of strings in the classrooms that are just not maximized. Now, granted, yes, they have their own work to do, and they’re busy with their kids. But you also know, there’s really strong teacher leaders in the classroom that have significantly more influence on the school than any of us do. And you’re like, wow, so they’re just natural leaders. Right? And yeah, they can whip up a whole school if they want to. And I love that, because I’m like, they’re just like natural leaders. So you know, maximize that, if that, you know, if you have such strengths in your school, it’s your job to be able to kind of showcase that. But I have seen some significantly unsupportive practices. I say, one of the biggest ones, for me was what I wrote about, and it comes from a guy named Tim McClure, who he ended up reviewing my book for me, I reached out to him because his quote was one that just kind of, you know, sparked that moment in me. And it’s the biggest concern for any organization should be when they’re most passionate people become quiet. And it’s like, yeah, because you see, it constantly asked time and time again, is the most passionate people out there become quiet because they feel silenced. They don’t feel included. And they’re not. I think, I think the other misconception is when you invite people to be part of a leadership team, or you invite people to be part of a committee. They don’t feel included. Just because you’re included, doesn’t necessarily mean you feel that way. And so that’s such a huge disconnect that I’ve seen across the board. That is just so important. And it’s the reason I wrote that book is because there’s there’s ways that you have to really build trust, intentionally. And it’s not just, you know, inviting someone to be part of a committee in which maybe they’re not even tapped into, but you’re on that, but you’re on the committee. Right? But what about it, you know, what kind of role are you taking in there? And are you really listening to them?

Chrissy Beltran  29:25

Yeah, do they actually do anything? Are you just letting them know what you were already going to do? That happens a lot. What are your thoughts about so I’ve seen it happen where, like a coach is on a committee for, let’s say, literacy and the literacy committee makes a decision about something for the school. And then individual teachers don’t like the decision. And they go to the My favorite is when it happens when they were like it was open invitation to join the committee and they just didn’t, and then they, they go, they don’t like the choice that was made by the committee, and they go to the administrator and the administrator was like, Well, don’t worry About that, you just do what you need to do. And so then this decision has been made, you know, in a group setting, especially, it’s not like a unilateral thing, but the coach made up. And teachers are now told, don’t worry about that.

30:14

I think that is, I’ve seen it. I’ve also seen that too. And I think I that comes from either fear or it comes from, like, not wanting to, you know, rattle people’s cages. And I think it’s, I think it’s hard when folks get into a leadership position and don’t know how to hold people accountable without being a jerk, and you don’t, and that’s where that misconception comes from. I was gonna name my book, you know, don’t be a jerk.

Chrissy Beltran  30:40

I love it. But there’s,

30:43

I decided that like, an actually needs to sell and I used to, like, you know, yeah, I was like, let me be renamed relatable that. But there’s ways to hold people accountable. And it kind of stems itself back to, for us as coaches like coaching heavy or coaching like, right? You don’t coaching heavy doesn’t mean you have to be assertive in mean in like, now you’re doing this. That’s not what it is. It’s about holding folks accountable to showing Well, let’s try it and see if it works. And then let’s make a decision about it. And let’s see it you know, if it doesn’t work, then you’re spot on. You’re right. That was a terrible idea. But how are we going to make decisions? And we’re going to keep doing the same thing over and over again, if we’re not actually going to try something new and ship practice. So shoot the messenger, but let’s try it first. Yeah, try then how long can we agree to do that before we’re like, okay, it’s out. And of course, there’s been certain times when certain practices have been put in and you’re like, why did we do that? And it’s a collective? Well, that was a terrible idea. Versus It was your idea, and that’s why decisions to be made collectively. Now, granted, that happens behind the scenes all the time, but it’s really your job as leader to say, we’re gonna try it. I totally agree.

Chrissy Beltran  31:59

Yes, I totally agree. Because then that diminishes any authority that any group has, like, well, you don’t make decisions for me, well, then you can just do whatever you want. Just do whatever. Yeah. Which is a problem, you know. And so we have coaches kind of in the middle. And they have I heard somebody I did a webinar the other day about, about coaching and helping people embrace new learning and implement new ideas. And I said, What is it? What are you struggling with right now in this area, and one of the coaches said, I’m tired of leading from the middle. I’m tired of it, which because it is not, you don’t have the same authority, you don’t have the role of an administrator who says, Look, this is what we’re doing. You know, like you said, you can say clearly and firmly without being a jerk that this is what we’re doing. And coaches have, are kind of in the middle. And they have to derive any authority from a different place from relationships from, you know, just collegiality and decision making in groups and things like that. And so we can hold people accountable. But it doesn’t look like administrative accountability. It’s a completely different thing.

33:03

And it also makes me wonder, like, how was that decision made? You know, obviously, not everyone was heard. Right? And so it speaks to how did you invite all voices to be heard then. And there’s also this like, whole bucket of research out there about people that are not extroverts with a ton of introverted features? Seems like counterintuitive to teaching, but it’s not. And, you know, how did you hear them then? And they might not want to go against the grain in a large collective setting. And I don’t blame them. So how do you then hear them? And make sure that their voices are already included in those larger decisions? And then voice it for them? Like, well, there’s folks that say this, like, how do we feel about that? You know, and if so, if those if those comments aren’t being listened to, then of course, you’re gonna, you’re gonna get cornered into this, like, oh, well, you don’t have to do it. But that’s actually not leading. And so you do have to make those really difficult decisions and say, Well, you know, we’re gonna try it. And I expect you to do it.

Chrissy Beltran  34:02

Yeah, yeah. Because there are times whenever it’s impossible to come to a consensus, we have to decide what is it that we can? Where’s the wiggle room where it’s not wiggle room? Like, it’s tricky, right.

34:13

Right. And then what’s the like, what’s the purpose of shifting over this instructional strategy? Right. So why are we doing this? I think all of those things that, like I said, like sometimes if you have to be like, redundant in that sense, because there’s assumption to me that everybody gets it, but maybe not.

Chrissy Beltran  34:28

Absolutely. Oh, for sure. We’re back. Like,

34:32

why are we doing this again?

Chrissy Beltran  34:33

Yeah, totally the point.

34:36

So it’s, it is a lot of conversations that have to happen. And sometimes you don’t have to make decisions in one day either. Right? So maybe we need to talk about this more. And that’s okay, too. So it’s, it’s hard. It’s not like it’s easy work, right. So it’s certainly lots of different conversations that I think have to happen. So

Chrissy Beltran  34:55

another thing that I’ve seen is coaches who are bait So they can’t get a definitive response from their admin about what their role is, or they have struggled with that. Or maybe they haven’t been brave enough to say, I don’t feel like my role is clearly defined here. And it’s impacting my ability to do my work with teachers. And admin sometimes undermines that by not defining the role, or by sharing it in a way that is not super effective. Like this is the expert whenever they introduce coaches as the expert, which is what happened to me whenever I started out and good, good intentions for my admin, but I was introduced as the expert. And I think some people were like, Great, another expert. That’s what we need, you know.

35:33

Exactly. Oh, wonderful. I can’t wait to tap into her knowledge. Yeah, exactly. I think that that, like how you showcase that person’s skills is so important. So I always say like, you have to have a conversation with your principal. And I remember going into school, I had never had a coach. And I asked that principal, like, Can we meet like, before school starts? And in their responses? Why? Like, oh, man, wow. But I had to be the person to ask for it. And then that’s where I was like, Oh, I’m gonna just whip through my mission, mission and values, like real quick, like, this is what I this is what my role is, this is what I do that. And that person said, Awesome. Can you do that? I’m like, yeah, yes, I can. Can I present that please? In that conversation went, so I was like, Yeah, can I can I tell the staff that? And they said, it sounds a great idea. I was like, great. So sometimes you have to interject yourself, knowing that we know what we should do as coaches. And sometimes we don’t. So it’s we are all on the same team to support one another in how difficult it is, depending on where you are.

Chrissy Beltran  36:43

Yes, I totally agree. So some of these things are happening. What can a coach do to address them?

36:50

Unnecessary conversation, I don’t say crucial. I don’t say complex. I don’t say hard, because I like to assume positive intentions and going into these conversations, which is extremely difficult. And I say but probably before that, call your coach first. Because every coach deserves to have one. So yeah, first call your coach, and go, Oh, my gosh, I have to have this conversation. What do I do? You know, that’s always so helpful. I still do it all the time. Then I agreed. And I’m ready to get myself together. And then I have a conversation. And I and I asked them simply, you know, depending on what it is, it’s going on, you know, let’s put it on the table. I’m confused. It’s about a, b, and c or, you know, what do you see is this really, it really has to happen. And it’s very difficult, I think. And I’ve been in that situation where I’m like, Great, I’m going to be the person has to initiate this conversation, because it’s like crickets out here. Like if I hadn’t had this conversation is, what would I be doing? What would people be like, you know, what are people thinking? I’m doing? Cool. So I’m gonna set that up by having this conversation with you. And it’s a necessary one, it has to happen. There’s really no, no way around it. You have to sit down, even if it’s a 10 minute conversation, fine. I’ll take it. I need I need your time so that we could be on the same page before you move forward. Because if there’s not at least a common understanding, then it’s not going to happen. And that’s also when I remember asking their secretary, can you can you put me on that calendar, at least, you know, once every month to start? And I remember that you want to meet every month? I do.

Chrissy Beltran  38:30

Yeah, I’m still gonna be here next month, and we might have a thing to talk about. So yeah, let’s let’s do it. Yeah,

38:36

I remember going do I do that? And I remember that Secretary going that’s, that’s pretty cool. They’ve never done that before. And I’m like, really? Oh, God. But I just remember going well, you know, I have I have to, because we have to make sure that we’re on the same page of like what I’m supposed to be doing here? Because that’s pretty important.

Chrissy Beltran  38:56

Yeah. Yeah. I think you know, as you as you’re talking about that, I was thinking about how one of the things that I’ve seen, that administrators do that set coaches up for failure really, is they define them as a coach for only struggling teachers. Yeah, part of that role conversation that you have, you have to really distinguish coaches support all learning, you mentioned, every coach deserves a coach every to that’s actually my podcast. You know, the thing that I promote with my podcast is, every teacher deserves a coach and every coach does, too. And I think that whenever we are set up in our role only to serve struggling teachers, then automatically, that leaves a really bad taste in everybody’s mouth. And nobody wants to work with you. Nobody wants to have to work with nobody wants to be designated as the person who gets to work with you. And everybody’s afraid of you because oh my god, if you come see me, then I’m a terrible teacher.

39:50

Yeah, and I remember it was a principal after that one, or somewhere in between that said to me, you’re going to work with that person. And otherwise, they’re going to be fired. Like, whoa. And I was like, let’s go back to that mission, and vision and purpose. It’s not a fix it model. So actually, like, I don’t do that. And it was like, you don’t do that. I’m like, am I gonna get fired? Am I telling you what I’m not doing? This is weird. But I had to be really clear in what I didn’t do. And that also came with some territory of like, I’m not a substitute teacher. I’m not, it’s not that I’m not a team player. Is that’s not the story. You want people to like, oh, they didn’t help or they didn’t want to, they don’t. So you know, it’s the why behind it. And especially as I was funded as a title, one instructional coach, and that mattered. Because, you know, my my duties and my day to day responsibilities, how to align with what that funding entitled me to be able to do. So that, you know, that was a conversation too. And it was not that I didn’t want to help or support? Of course I do. However, that’s also not my role in this you these are actually what I do. And I was, once people understood that I was busy all day long, because everybody needed help. It was either classroom management, or data or reports, or like, how do I have this IEP meeting, or whatever it was, that school needed, honest support. And once they got comfortable knowing that they could trust me, it worked beautifully. And it was great. And it wasn’t, don’t stick me on people. But had I had not said no, I wonder what would have become of me? Because, you know, and does it mean, I wasn’t afraid of being like, No, I was like, what are they gonna think? That I’m not a team player. But that’s just not the case. I had to, you know, justify my role. And without having anyone done that before I was like, this could go either way. Right?

Chrissy Beltran  42:05

So yeah, exactly. It really could, if that’s an issue that like, as a lot of the coaches that I used to work with, at the school that I was at, they are being used in all different ways. And there is only so much know that they can say, based on their job description, because the job description that they signed with the district is like you will do all of these things if needed. And that’s just part of your job. So they can’t push back on it too much. Because they will pull out that job description. And so then again, we talked about on the podcast a couple months ago, how to track your coaching work, how to have a dialogue with realize you’re being used a lot of things that are not impacting teacher and student learning. But, but yeah, it is tough in a lot of cases, because it depends on what spelled out on paper when you’re hired, you know,

42:50

right. And, and yeah, especially. And then like, when the pandemic happened, like, everything went up in the air, and it was, well, like, you know, everything changed, and the needs change. And so, you know, you have to like step back and look at like the situation, but like now, post pandemic is also so difficult, and the needs are different, too. So, you know, I always we always we say we say like, let’s look at those. Ladies, let’s look at those job descriptions, did they really align with what we’re doing right now? And so there’s nothing wrong with editing some of those to really align themselves with what coaching is, really, if you’re hiring a coach, I think that you know, that’s a whole nother podcast episode. Right. But, yeah. But it’s, it’s worth thinking about. And, you know, if you do trust, focus in your district, I think it’s worth asking, you know, when’s the last time those were revised? And what are they based on? Because some some job descriptions you pull in or like, for real? Yeah, I’m interesting. And even, you know, they’ve, they’ve been in place forever. They just keep hiring and putting people on same positions without any change. You know, I just read an article recently about assistant principals and the job description of an assistant principal hasn’t changed since like, 1982 I’m pretty sure the role has changed since then.

Chrissy Beltran  44:22

Okay, that is I was one whenever the job description was established that it was one year old.

44:31

Yeah, it makes me like, that’s how long has it been in place? And that’s that’s a whole nother pocket of research right now. That’s right. It is it very much it so always just thinking, like, where did that come from?

Chrissy Beltran  44:43

It makes a lot of sense, because I spoke with Dr. Jenn Hasbrouck about defining roles and she was talking about how we don’t usually have to explicitly define the role of the principal or the AP because I’m the teacher those three things because pretty much everybody knows what they do. They know what they’re responsibilities are, but the role of the coach is so new and it’s a morphus. And it’s used in different places in different ways. So we have to clearly define that role. Because if not, there’s no establishing any coaching culture.

45:11

Absolutely. And that’s why it’s so important to do it. And I always say, even if you feel super awkward doing it, don’t make that assumption. Don’t Don’t make that assumption that she ate it. I when I did that presentation for that very first school, three people got up and clapped in the back. And then I remember asking someone going, was that like, a good thing? Yeah, no, it was a great thing. I’m like, why, and then later, I came to understand that there was not much explicit directives or instructions, or, you know, what’s the plan? What are we doing indication

Chrissy Beltran  45:45

was not clear. Yeah, usually, I

45:47

was like, what was that, you know, your first day up there on the stage of like, Oh, okay. I guess that went well. But then, you know, and it takes time, because people are like, and just, you know, go slow, to go fast, and stick with it and keep going, you know, offer your coaching and it picked up over time. So, even if it feels awkward at first, do it, do it be explicit, and then what you have to do to pay for people to know and understand what coaches do.

Chrissy Beltran  46:20

So you talked a little bit about, like, so far to finding your role communicating that with your administrator, sharing it with teachers, and, and introducing, you know, what kinds of supports you can provide? What are some other small steps that a coach can take on their own to build a coaching culture? If they feel like they’re not getting the support for madmen? Whether that’s because admin is not super communicative, or they’re not sticking to any of the things that have been decided, for all the reasons that teach that coaches have struggled with this? What can they do if they kind of feel like they’re having to do it on their own?

46:52

I certainly did. And I say that is when you stick with your role. And if you have teachers that you’re working with, and teachers that understand the role, begin to showcase them begin to showcase what it is that you’re actually doing, like, how are you coaching? And what’s the proof in the pudding out there? And how is it improving student learning? So I think once you start showcasing what you see we what their advantage, our advantage is having that bird’s eye view around the school, and that’s what teachers don’t see, they don’t have the opportunity to see because they’re teaching, it is your job to showcase what it is that you’re actually doing behind the scenes, during those periods where teachers are working with you as the coach, like, what does that look like? And what are you actually working on? Like, how are you coaching them, and there’s so many different avenues of coaching that, you know, across the one of the middle schools that I was a coach at, I would go from one side of the campus to the other, and it was completely different coaching roles. It was, you know, data over here, instructional strategies over here, this ad was facilitation. This was like a check tool. You know, everybody needed something different. I go work with the music teacher, because it was her first year teaching. And she was deathly afraid of the parents. And she had a big concert that night. And it was just coaching her through like, you’re okay, and she was like, I’m not okay. Um, and you know, it really just depended if people felt not like lack of competence in doing something it really just dependent. So showcasing that, like, what are you doing, and finding a way to be able to do that, whether it’s a newsletter, or however you share what you’re working on, I think that’s really important, because you can feel or seem very silenced. If you’re not sharing what you’re doing. Yeah, it’s

Chrissy Beltran  48:46

such a good point is being responsive to teacher needs. And usually Matt to frame how you’re supporting people. And then using that kind of work that you’ve done as leverage, sort of to get into other places. Teachers can also share about the work that you’ve done together. And I find that to be really meaningful, like during a PLC, if they say, Oh, we’ve been working on this, this is something that we tried together. Other teachers are more likely to receive that well, because it comes from their colleague.

49:12

Exactly. And I remember showcasing one of my first grade teachers, and she, she she had been doing a book talk, just paper pencil, and I asked her like, what’s your comfort level with like a green screen? And she was like, I’m not doing that. And I’m like, okay, and then eventually she was like, Okay, so like, what’s a green screen app? Like, so I was like, you want to try it? And we ended up I ended up getting funds to paint this brick wall in the back of our school rain. And we got a grant and through Lowe’s actually and use those funds to set that up for her and she became like the showcase of showcases of green screens and she was like, I never thought this was possible. It was are 25 of her teaching, which I always say, you know, it goes against all research that says like, veteran teachers don’t want to do this. That’s not true. She loved it. And then the whole school knew that she was like the pro green screens. And she was so proud. She was just like, Yeah, I’m the I’m the green screen pro now. And you know, she was in first grade. So I was like, huh, like, first graders could do it. So my eighth graders across the way, I was like, these first graders are crushing you guys at these productions that they were putting on and it became fun. And it became like it she oversaw like a skill set that she thought she didn’t have, that she was actually really good at. And I’m like, This is amazing. So it’s, you know, seeing that journey, and someone and being able to celebrate that with an entire school was fantastic. And I’ll never forget it. And I’m sure her kids would neither. So I just I enjoyed seeing someone, like learn that they have the ability to do and learn whatever it is, and I’m there to, you know, just support them and doing like, what’s her vision? Like? I don’t I don’t know how you do this book talk in first grade, you tell me? What do you want the kids to be able to do? And then let me help you make that happen. And then she was on her own, and she didn’t need me anymore. But then it became about, you know, doing a collaborative learning visit and bringing other teachers to come and see her do that. And that was awesome, in that building that capacity and who’s who’s going to be the next awesome person? And what did they do? That’s awesome, that can teach the rest of the school. So that’s, that’s the fun part of being a coach is learning everybody’s strengths and understanding just how what rockstars there are in the classroom and what they do. And then showcasing that showcasing what they do for everyone else. And I’m like, despises magic. It’s just you just didn’t have anyone to showcase what was happening behind when your doors are closed. And then just fine tuning it, you know, if they want to fine tune it and prove it, or I don’t like how it turned out or whatever. You work with them on that and being able to teach other teachers what that looks like behind the scenes. It’s actually pretty fun. And then they get to understand what coaching really is. And it should be. That’s, that’s the true work of a coach is trying to navigate all of this little granular things of like, oh, I don’t really know how this is gonna work. But we’re going to make it happen. We’re going to do it, and I’m going to do it with you. So I love it.

Chrissy Beltran  52:23

Thank you so much for sharing everything that you’ve shared about coaching culture. Today. I’m going to ask you my favorite question, which is what is your favorite thing right now? And so it can be anything that you’re loving anything at all product, a movie, or show anything?

52:38

I am totally binging on everything right now. I am watching the last thing he said. Right now. It’s a book that was by Laura, Dave, I believe. And Jennifer Gardner is surging in it right now. And it’s so good. So I am binging on all things. Netflix and Apple TV right now. And I’m a big fan of Mel Robbins podcast. So I was listening to her the other day to about you know, your health is your greatest wealth and how she’s taking a walk intentionally every morning for 10 minutes in the sunlight. And it sounds simple, but it’s so not so you know, just taking care of yourself and binging TV. So I’m trying to balance both of those things, which are like my favorite things right now.

Chrissy Beltran  53:22

Yeah, I totally get I’m trying to balance your favorite shows that you’re excited about. And then also doing all the things that you need to do to be healthy. Being.

53:32

Right, yes. Like, oh, sunlight, hello. Right, you know, stop working or, you know, whatever it is that we’re so used to doing 24/7. So like, take breaks. So definitely.

Chrissy Beltran  53:46

All right, awesome. Well, how can people find you online if they want to learn more?

53:51

Yes, so I it’s weird seeing my face on Amazon now. So my very first book is out there. And that’s trust is the core of instructional leadership. And it’s all about all the things you talked about today is how to relay those five key trust building practices. And I try to make that as practical as possible. I’m most visible probably on Instagram. It’s up from insight to equity. So if you listen in, you know, introduce yourselves. And I love meeting educators around the globe. And just hearing all the amazing work that everyone’s doing to make a difference for students and teachers everywhere. So, you know, link up me, you know, follow me. And certainly, I’m excited. And thanks for having me on today and getting to know a little bit more about your podcast as well. And for all the work that we all do, as coaches we’re all working on the same thing are all on the same team, as far as I’m concerned working towards the same goal. So

Chrissy Beltran  54:49

all right, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I’m sure coaches are gonna walk away with some good stuff.

54:55

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Chrissy Beltran  55:00

I just love how Delia came back to some of these foundational things that we can do and envision as coaches that will really support our work with teachers, regardless of whether administration is helping us get there because we know they don’t always help us do this hard work of coaching. If you are trying to define that coaching role and figure out how to communicate it with your admin and your teachers, I have a free webinar for you that you will absolutely love. It’s buzzing with msp.com/webinar and it’s going to take you to the Define your career coaching role webinar, it’s free, you can download it, watch it when you have time. I really have found that a lot of coaches this foundational piece is what is missing in their coaching program. So I really want you to grab that webinar. Take a look at it. Use the handout to make a plan and it will change your coaching work. I promise you it well. Next week in Episode 158. We are continuing our work on school wide approaches to support with a conversation about developing teacher leaders and Delia talked a little bit about that today. I think it’s such an important conversation to have. So we have to make sure we’re considering our faculty as our best asset for learning and change. We’re going to learn how to use them effectively next week and until then, happy coaching

Chrissy Beltran  56:18

Thank you for listening to buzzing with Miss B the coaching podcast. Want more coaching ideas? Check me out at buzzing with Ms. b.com and on Instagram at buzzing with Miss B. If you love the show, share it with a coach who would love it to or leave me a review on iTunes. It’s free and it helps others find this show. Happy coaching!